trans feminine

[JustWaking]

Read a great article on this board a week or so ago:
Orthodoxy and its discontents

The author consistently refers to Transwomen as 'trans feminine people'. I really like that, and intend to start using it!

It's accurately descriptive, focusing on gender identity rather than sex. It doesn't misgender, but doesn't coopt the word woman. It avoids the awkward speach pattern of MTF, FTM.

Language does matter: it frames viewpoints and influences law. Could we start using that phrase, and start trying to get it adopted?

I don't like it as it still wouldn't give clarity to the general public about the sex of the people it refers to. A trans feminine person could be a female 'non binary' who wears dresses and make up.

Feminine presenting males would be more accurate.

I don't entirely agree, for one reason it may look like you are referring to a subset of TW based on their appearance (or personality ? Set of social traits?).

I have repeatedly asked the TRAs who post on here if gender is essentially masculinity/ femininity and it is never answered, so I'd be loath to assume that is what is meant, that the terms map exactly.

Gender ideology strongly pushes the notion that trans people have no requirement to dress in any particular way, which I can see the logic in - I wouldn't expect a woman to be "feminine" so no reason to expect a trans woman to be, either.

Essentially you can have very masculine transwomen, ones who are parodies of femininity, and everything in between.

However, I think many people are referring to femininity etc when they talk about "what makes someone a woman". I agree it would make it easier as a term, to separate out from sex.

We all know that e.g. being masculine doesn't make you a man, and being a man doesn't make you masculine. They can exist entirely separately. So I agree that terms more specific to what you're actually talking about are very useful rather than rolling up a load of stereotypes in the word "woman".

It'd be interesting to see a word cloud or similar showing how much words like 'femininity', 'effeminate' and 'personality' have disappeared from the language in recent years, to be replaced by the language of gender ideology and 'identity'.

I get your point.

It is also why the TRAs banned the previous widely used and accurate acronym that perfectly pointed out the sex of the trans identifying individuals without reference to appearance.

Whatsnewpussyhat - what was the acronym? Is it MTF and FTM?

Did TRAs object to that? Sorry, I'm still quite new to the debate, and trying to figure things out.

Interesting point about Trans ideology being clear that there is no masculinity/femininity requirement. There's no real meaning to the word Trans now, is there?

It is also why the TRAs banned the previous widely used and accurate acronym that perfectly pointed out the sex of the trans identifying individuals without reference to appearance.

Yes. Descriptors that include an individual's sex are transphobic.

@JustWaking

Whatsnewpussyhat - what was the acronym? Is it MTF and FTM?

Did TRAs object to that? Sorry, I'm still quite new to the debate, and trying to figure things out.

Interesting point about Trans ideology being clear that there is no masculinity/femininity requirement. There's no real meaning to the word Trans now, is there?

Have a read of this, it crops up in these guidelines www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

No, thank you.

I increasingly favour PwaIF - People with an Immersive Fiction (credit to Kathleen Stock for the recognition of immersive fiction ).

Trans feminine is a TRA term, they invented it to include bodies with bollocks who are “non binary” or only wear skirts on Saturdays or whatever.

I don’t like it because as pp said it sounds like a description rather than a label. And “feminine” isn’t an accurate description of most bodies with bollocks and a gender identity that I’ve encountered.

(I think I am angrier about the Lancet than I knew. I might stick with “bodies with bollocks.”)

No, sorry.

Seeing that the more prominent trans people who are muscling in on women's rights have nothing "feminine" about them.

Weightlifting with a receding hairline and middle age spread? Breaking women's cycling world records? Drugging and raping a woman in your jail accomodation? Using your erect penis to threaten violence to an infamous child's author? Baseball bats with nails in them? Dead rats pinned to rape shelter doors?

Sorry.... This presumption that transwoman are "feminine men" is exactly how we've gotten into this mess. It's exactly why men, normal ordinary non politicised men, seem to think there are no problems whatsoever with TW in W's spaces, because TW are all harmless feminine creatures who are sexually attracted to them (the menz) so what's all the fuss about....

There's nothing more masculine than wanting the obliteration of another class of people, it might be in name alone but it's obliteration nonetheless.

what was the acronym? Is it MTF and FTM? Did TRAs object to that?

They're not really very accurate. MTM and FTF would be better.

Recently I've been using 'male transitioner' and 'female transitioner', but while accurate they still seem to cause confusion.

More and more I find myself using the TRA-style terms and saying 'penis haver', etc.

It doesn't work
Femininity and masculinity are things that you can just be, whether you're male or female. There is no trans anything. Men can be feminine already so being a feminine man isn't transitioning any category.
Plus, plenty of men who identify as lesbians are now calling themselves butches and not performing any femininity at all. We need to separate the connection between male and masculine, and female and feminine, upon which so much trans ideology rests.

I like the terms "man" and "woman" myself. I'm hoping it'll catch on.

I don’t like it because it’s not clear, and also because it reinforces stereotypes. Someone who’s non-binary trans masc could be male or female. The one I know is female and the masc bit, they have explained, is because they have short hair and wear ‘boys’ clothes. But I’ve also seen male NB people use masc.

@allmywhat

Bodies with bollocks

Kind of sums them up...

Yes I tend to go with "person with a penis" / "person with bollocks" if I need to these days, as it's completely "inclusive" apparently...

No. I prefer 'woman' and 'man' according to sex.