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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'For more than five decades, she identified as male.'

40 replies

Suzysunflower · 24/09/2021 19:46

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/24/a-new-start-after-60-i-became-a-priest-at-63-after-44-years-as-a-soldier-and-a-teacher

Hi I am newish to mumsnet and very new to this board. This is my first thread here so please be nice :)

I am a Guardian reader - I got so angry at this article (link above).

I mean, well done to this person for finding their calling but 'For more than five decades, she identified as male' is plain wrong.

That sentence implies that the person was a biological woman identifying as a man, not a biological man who later transitioned.

Is the article's language correct? It made me really cross, but maybe I am wrong? Please help me articulate/understand/see it clearly.

Thank you :)

OP posts:
Suzysunflower · 25/09/2021 11:33

Datun, thank you I am reading the thread and your very useful posts there. This blog mentioned in the thread is wonderful notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/

sep point 8: 8. Women’s oppression has its historical roots and its ostensible justification in female biology and the exploitation of female reproductive labour. Altering the definition of the word ‘female’ so that it now means ‘any person who believes themselves to be female’ is not only conceptually incoherent (more on this later); it also removes the possibility of analysing the structural oppression of female persons as a class, by eradicating the terminology we use to describe the material conditions of their existence.

It articulates what I have been thinking beautifully.

OP posts:
Datun · 25/09/2021 23:40

@Suzysunflower

Datun, thank you I am reading the thread and your very useful posts there. This blog mentioned in the thread is wonderful notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/

sep point 8: 8. Women’s oppression has its historical roots and its ostensible justification in female biology and the exploitation of female reproductive labour. Altering the definition of the word ‘female’ so that it now means ‘any person who believes themselves to be female’ is not only conceptually incoherent (more on this later); it also removes the possibility of analysing the structural oppression of female persons as a class, by eradicating the terminology we use to describe the material conditions of their existence.

It articulates what I have been thinking beautifully.

Good.

I've long thought that an understanding of feminism (and I'm late to the party on this), is crucial to grasp the reasons why women need to be recognised as a group, and not by the individual aspects of their sex. It's not just a case of how debasing or disrespectful it is.

You can talk about why menstruaters are stigmatised, or why cervix havers have second-rate medical research, or people who need abortion struggle to achieve body autonomy. But it all obscures the fact that it is women who are seen as lesser than. And their issues which are frequently subject to male oversight.

As the saying goes, you can't see sexism, if you don't see sex.

LobsterNapkin · 26/09/2021 02:21

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Sadly the Guardian's not really a serious campaigning newspaper any more so I'm generally sceptical of all these froth pieces. I mean Whatever bright colour you can think of. That’s my faith Hmm

OP, there's a thread called "break it down for me" somewhere on here that's quite helpful. And the final comments seem fairly typical:
My adventure is about to start. And I dare say, so is theirs That's a real reflection of self absorption with no interest shown in the congregation and their needs.

Congregations catch on to this stuff really quickly, I don't know why bishops haven't figured it out.
NoLanguageForOldWomen · 26/09/2021 03:50

Lol. Sounds like being a woman is the new midlife crisis project.
Well women have moved from being house bound furniture to being at least as valuable as yachts and supercars. Or we are just a more affordable retirement project. Grin

I know it's not funny but I can't help it. It's a bit mad.

NiceGerbil · 26/09/2021 04:11

I think I've only seen this once before.

For me it's a deliberate further push to change language and there's a definite end point coming into focus fast.

NiceGerbil · 26/09/2021 04:15

This unusual wording essentially says that.

For 50 years they were only identifying as a man. Implication - they were always a woman. Before that a girl. For 50 years. ( And why so often in armed forces?!)

So yes they were a woman identifying as a man.

Now they are the woman they always were. TWAW remember. No qualifier needed. They were never a man. Always a woman.

First 50 years a woman identifying as a man.
Now just s woman.

NiceGerbil · 26/09/2021 04:18

This to me is a pretty big shift.

The twaw but women are... Not. Is noticeable in all the new language.

We are
Bodies with vaginas
Menstruators
Etc.
But
Trans women are women.

Force way into group, Chuck the original people out.
Original people must not start new group. If they do that will get the same treatment.

Same.
TWAW.
Females are not women.

Female is going now.

And if we made another word for ourselves. That would soon be taken as well.

NiceGerbil · 26/09/2021 04:18

Oh and welcome OP!

NotTerfNorCis · 26/09/2021 05:07

It's this idea that everyone is just identifying as male or female. There is no objective criterion, it's all subjective belief. By that logic we're all just identifying as female and the fact that we might be biologically female is coincidence.

MinervaBoudicca · 26/09/2021 05:31

‘ Her transition has spurred mixed feelings in her daughters: acceptance, hurt, closeness, distance.’

The whole premise of this feature could have been about the daughters. ‘What does it feel like for them when Dad tries to tell you he’s your Mum’ etc But these young women are dismissed in a sentence. The Guardian is more interested in indulging this male born person’s autogynephilia, which is intriguing.

For more on this aspect of transgender health, I recommend reading this about Ray Blanchard and what autogynephilia is:
www.google.com/amp/s/quillette.com/2021/09/07/the-truth-about-autogynephilia/amp/

AnyOldPrion · 26/09/2021 06:34

I came on to say something similar to what NiceGerbil outlined above.

The language bait and switch has been regularly used by a small number of transactivists, who have a lot of reach, and from there the new position spreads to the still small, but very politically loud, group of followers.

So when first the mantra “transwomen are women” was introduced, it was understood by all that it was not literally true. Then moves were made, such as introducing a gap in the word “transwomen” so the claim could be made that it’s not a compound noun, but an adjective and a noun, and that therefore we could imply that men actually are women. And suddenly we were no longer going along with a mantra we all knew was a polite courtesy, but with a false, but aggressively pressed claim that it was literal truth.

So it seems highly likely the next stage to be attempted is indeed to move from “this is a man, who now identifies as female” to “this is a woman who used to identify as male”.

Similarly on a different front, there was a clear demonstration this week (in the Lancet, of all places) of a different attempted language shift. There, they are attempting to move to a position where the word woman can only be used if it is being used in a way that potentially includes men who claim they are women, but must not be used in an article about anything that relates only to women.

(As an interesting aside, that insistence might be starting to backfire, as women have made the very reasonable sounding suggestion that true “inclusivity” would be to use “women and [list of other identities claimed by women]”. Though that formulation is, in itself, somewhat troublesome, it does subvert the men’s insistence that women should only be used when it includes them. This technique might also be used to reasonably suggest third spaces, not because we believe they are really needed, but because they are such a moderate suggestion that objections from transactivists to something so obviously reasonable give pause to those who are undecided.)

Anyway, after all that, it’s obvious, even on Twitter, that more and more people are objecting to these attempts to use language to achieve an end (as opposed to natural evolution in language as understanding changes). The alarming and frustrating thing is not that they are managing to carry their opinions into the wider world, because they’re not. It’s the fact that despite not managing to do that, these men have so much power that they are still allowed to do this, despite the ever increasing sound of angry, but logical voices pointing out the problems and risks their propaganda is creating.

Cascascascas · 26/09/2021 07:41

@Suzysunflower

I think this a great story that someone who probably hid all their life can now be themselves

That’s what this is about. Nothing more.

AlfonsoTheMango · 26/09/2021 07:49

As soon as I saw the photograph that accompanied the article (and the relevant bit was buried at the bottom of the article) I knew why this person was being interviewed.

You can identify as whatever you like but you can't change biology.

NoToast · 26/09/2021 07:56

When I was reading up on narcissistic personalities I found out that the law, acting and priesthood are attractive professions for them.

Just sayin'

MonsignorMirth · 26/09/2021 08:42

@NiceGerbil

This unusual wording essentially says that.

For 50 years they were only identifying as a man. Implication - they were always a woman. Before that a girl. For 50 years. ( And why so often in armed forces?!)

So yes they were a woman identifying as a man.

Now they are the woman they always were. TWAW remember. No qualifier needed. They were never a man. Always a woman.

First 50 years a woman identifying as a man.
Now just s woman.

But "identifying as" is the same as "is". Right? So either the graun is saying they werea man, and wasn't a woman inside all along from birth - which is not how these situations are normally described - OR as NiceGerbil says, "identifying as" can be a temporary state, ready to change if one's feelings change - so "identifying as" might not necessarily mean "truly being "..

That's why I found it mildly interesting, as per my first post.

I know ppl like Pips Bunce demonstrate that one can supposedly truly change one's true gender from day to day, so scenario one isn't exactly unheard of.

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