Misgendering . . . actually isn't

[Fifteentoes]

Someone a while back accused me of misgendering someone, and being an open minded and reflective kind of guy, if gender critical, I found myself thinking about it from time to time. Wondering if I really had done something wrong, should try to do things differently, etc.

Then I realised, I hadn't done anything of the sort. When I referred to the person as male I wasn't referring to their gender, I was referring to their sex (as the meaning of the word has been understood for millenia, and still is by most people). As I was making no claim whatsoever about their gender, how could I be misgendering them?

It's like these people not only claim the right to change the meaning of language, but the right to interpret everyone else's use of the language according to the new meaning as well, even when it's not intended that way. And then get offended by it.

Weird.

This comes up loads for me, as I have a close colleague who i get on well with who also happens to be (ftm) trans, but I am gender critical.

I just use their name if I’m referencing them in conversation, repeatedly if i have to. “Yes, Alan* did that. I think Alan said it would be complete by Friday” etc.

Its a bit clumsy, and if i can avoid it i do, but its the best compromise i can find that doesn’t offend them and doesn’t compel me to say things I don’t believe to be true.

*not real name

OP said they referred to the person as male. Nothing to do with pronouns/ gender. Male refers to sex. That's the OPs whole point.

OP also says that yes they might have been being a bit of a dick.

Personally I see it as an across the board issue and really don't like the idea of deliberately being a dick about a mutual acquaintance or colleague.

That's where I'm coming from.

@NiceGerbil it doesn’t matter. You keep banging on about “context” but it makes no difference to the point that OP is making.

Scenario 1: OP referred to this individual as he/him during a conversation that was unrelated to identity politics/sex/gender. This is the far likelier scenario and I’m not sure why you’ve decided it simply can’t be what happened.

Scenario 2: OP spoke his mind to a mutual friend and expressed his GC views and said outright that this person is male.

You may feel that scenario 2 makes OP a dick or unkind or whatever, but the point still stands. He didn’t “misgender” anyone. In both scenarios he used language (he, him, male) based upon the sex of the person in question, not their “gender identity”.

Assigning pronouns based on gender is impractical if you believe that gender is a fluid construct and negates the belief that gender is non-binary. To be clear in meaning we need to use sex-based pronouns. This is not being a dick; it's simply plain speaking.

I find it incredible that the same people who wish to be known by the incorrect pronouns as a matter of courtesy and respect dismiss women's desire for dignity and privacy from the male gaze.

I really don't like the idea of anyone deliberately refusing to listen to a woman refusing to give consent to men to enter single-sex spaces. I think anyone insisting that they are entitled to remove rights from others while demanding additional consideration for themselves is being (and probably has) a dick.

That's where I'm coming from.

@Alternista

This comes up loads for me, as I have a close colleague who i get on well with who also happens to be (ftm) trans, but I am gender critical.

I just use their name if I’m referencing them in conversation, repeatedly if i have to. “Yes, Alan* did that. I think Alan said it would be complete by Friday” etc.

Its a bit clumsy, and if i can avoid it i do, but its the best compromise i can find that doesn’t offend them and doesn’t compel me to say things I don’t believe to be true.

*not real name

Many trans men pass very well. I think I would find the mental gymnastics of avoiding saying "he" for someone who looked like Freddy McConnell or Fox Fisher, far less Buck Angel more taxing by far than simply saying "he"

I've never met any of them in person but from YouTube and other videos my brain does not process them as "she". It would require effort to apply "she" to them.

Did the op just dump and run then? Typical guy....

I've never met any of them in person but from YouTube and other videos my brain does not process them as "she". It would require effort to apply "she" to them.

It would be interesting to see if the 'in person' experience were different (e.g., the height and build might be rather more apparent in person - I've no idea). See final photograph here:

herriotts.wordpress.com/2020/05/16/the-usual-suspects-steven-whittle/

Stephen Whittle looks unquestionably male.

Just an aside, I didn't like the snide and unnecessary comments made about Eleanor Whittle and the gratuitous I defy anyone to guess which of these three individuals is actually male re the last photograph.

@KimikosNightmare

Stephen Whittle looks unquestionably male.

Just an aside, I didn't like the snide and unnecessary comments made about Eleanor Whittle and the gratuitous I defy anyone to guess which of these three individuals is actually male re the last photograph.

I didn't read any of the text, I just knew the photograph from seeing it previously. I found a copy through through Google image. Did you leave your comment for the blog author?

I wondered if you'd find it different if you met Stephen Whittle IRL given height and build which is why I located a photo with a range of heights.

Personally I see it as an across the board issue and really don't like the idea of deliberately being a dick about a mutual acquaintance or colleague.

I don't see a reference to someone's biological sex as "deliberately being a dick". But then I don't believe in gender identity ideology or see it as something that must be pandered to any more than I'd agree that as a non theist I am going straight to hell.

OP refused to give context- how on earth the referring to a mutual colleague/ acquaintance as male came about. I mean it seems odd.

Additionally OP has said yes they may well have been being a dick.

So yeah. I don't like people being dicks. Generally. I mean if it was a blatent point about someone who is perfectly nice and hasn't done anything that would get up anyone's noses. Wrong bogs/ bizarre performative 'feminity', getting arsey etc. IE if they're not being a dick then really no need for it at work or between mutual friends etc.

In that case I think it's shit behaviour. TBH. And OP wasn't talking to someone with shared view. But someone op must have pretty much known would not like it.

So in fact OP was a dick (as he pretty much admits) to the woman he was talking to (goady) and about someone who may have done nothing dickish whatsoever.

Sorry just re read ops two posts. I don't know where I got the person he was talking to was a woman!

I probably assumed because well depending on workplace etc. I just read that the person 'accused' him of misgendering and in general I can't imagine many blokes doing that.

Anyway.

I can see much disagreement. And obv that's fine and my thoughts are not with well. Anyone else?

I just feel essentially that being a dick about transpeople you know personally, and in the absence of any indication the trans person was being a dick. That it's out of order.

Not all trans people are activists or even close. Plenty think what is happening to women is rubbish. Sticking their heads above the parapets means rage max. Traitor zone. Because them speaking up is very dangerous, undermines the whole narrative.

And anyone most people trans or otherwise just want to get on with life. Not everyone is gleefully going to breastfeeding classes and whatnot.

So yeah that's my view. I'm interested in the massive problem across politics police etc etc.

I'm not interested in supporting a bloke who admits he was being a dick. I also read goady.

Not for me. I've tried to explain as best I can as I keep seeing my name.

So hope that is a decent explanation even if disagree !

I wondered if you'd find it different if you met Stephen Whittle IRL given height and build which is why I located a photo with a range of heights

I don't really see height as a big deal. I don't know exactly how tall I am 5'4/5'5/5'6 - certainly no more than 5' 6- regardless possibly because I'm in Scotland not Scandinavia or the Netherlands but there are plenty of men around that height or shorter than me.

I don't see a reference to someone's biological sex as "deliberately being a dick". But then I don't believe in gender identity ideology or see it as something that must be pandered to any more than I'd agree that as a non theist I am going straight to hell

But how often in the course of an average day is it even necessary to discuss someone's biological sex?

@NiceGerbil

Sorry just re read ops two posts. I don't know where I got the person he was talking to was a woman!

I probably assumed because well depending on workplace etc. I just read that the person 'accused' him of misgendering and in general I can't imagine many blokes doing that.

Anyway.

I can see much disagreement. And obv that's fine and my thoughts are not with well. Anyone else?

I just feel essentially that being a dick about transpeople you know personally, and in the absence of any indication the trans person was being a dick. That it's out of order.

Not all trans people are activists or even close. Plenty think what is happening to women is rubbish. Sticking their heads above the parapets means rage max. Traitor zone. Because them speaking up is very dangerous, undermines the whole narrative.

And anyone most people trans or otherwise just want to get on with life. Not everyone is gleefully going to breastfeeding classes and whatnot.

So yeah that's my view. I'm interested in the massive problem across politics police etc etc.

I'm not interested in supporting a bloke who admits he was being a dick. I also read goady.

Not for me. I've tried to explain as best I can as I keep seeing my name.

So hope that is a decent explanation even if disagree !

I get your points and agree.

Well the OP doesn't want to give the context and says yes they were maybe being a bit of a dick.

So without comment from OP to clear it up I'm sticking with my current thoughts.

I also dislike discussing how well individuals 'pass'.

And doing it often gets threads deleted fyi.

I seem to be very contrary on this thread!

Ah well.

@NiceGerbil

I also dislike discussing how well individuals 'pass'.

And doing it often gets threads deleted fyi.

I mentioned it in response to one poster's determination not to call her trans man colleague "he"

I would find it very difficult not to think of many trans men as "he".

Well I've already said how I feel about things when it comes to individuals.

It won't change anything. It's just to make a point.

I mean even if there are people you work with who piss you off for whatever reason. I dunno. I just don't see the mileage in this sort of thing.

Trying to think of another example. Say I was vv RC. A colleague who married in RC and then divorced remarried and took surname.

Would I persist in using previous husband surname for her? Make pointed remarks to other colleagues using her old name?

No of course I wouldn't. If I did and someone got pissy I've got protection religion to wave about.

But I don't see the point of (as I take OP to have done) bringing up their surname for no apparent reason with one of her friends. Friend days wtf that's not on. I think oho and go and post on forum to say my religion terrible etc.

Or maybe that example I should be the one who changed name.

Anyway. Whatever!

It won't change anything.
This person as far as we know has done nothing apart from presumably change name pronouns clothes.

I mean I can't get worked up about that at all. If just getting on with things and not in women's spaces.

Not all trans people are awful by default.

I find this petty and nasty really.

And it achieves zero. Apart from maybe making a perfectly nice but not confident person feel like shit if/ when they find out.

Also doing this sort of stuff will make us seem like arseholes. There are people who will gradually change their mind. Trans people who think the colonisation of women's everything are becoming more in number and being blunt, on Twitter at least.

Going around being petty and mean about individuals we know, just because they're trans. Will not win us any friends. Quite the reverse. It will make those who might support in time, away.

@Alternista

This comes up loads for me, as I have a close colleague who i get on well with who also happens to be (ftm) trans, but I am gender critical.

I just use their name if I’m referencing them in conversation, repeatedly if i have to. “Yes, Alan* did that. I think Alan said it would be complete by Friday” etc.

Its a bit clumsy, and if i can avoid it i do, but its the best compromise i can find that doesn’t offend them and doesn’t compel me to say things I don’t believe to be true.

*not real name

I noticed Steve Wright doing this while introducing Eddie Izzard on his show. Wonder if it's a BBC thing or a Wrighty thing?

This was about the specific issue of whether calling someone male is "misgendering". Not about the specifics which you are determined to make it about. I don't think preferred pronouns are harmless or agree with any aspect of gender identity ideology. So I don't see that the context is particularly relevant to a general discussion of the issue.