This is the podcast to send people to: it works!

[Shedbuilder]

My sister thinks my GC views are horrific and that as a lesbian I should know better what it's like to be an oppressed minority. As a result we have had very limited contact for the last 18 months. She knows nothing about this subject but her certainty that she is right and I am wrong has changed the way I think and feel about her.

Anyway, she asked what I'd like for my birthday and I asked her to give me an hour of her time to listen to Helen Joyce speaking on Gender: A Wider Lens, with Stella O'Malley. She agreed, with a lot of sighing and 'I know what I think and it won't change my mind.'

But Helen's introduction, saying this is about an idea and an ideology and not about people, and going on to make it plain that this is homophobia in action, has made her think. Not (yet) turned her Into a full-on terf, but she's actually admitted that the situation isn't how she imagined it.

I think this will be the one thing I send people when I'm opening the conversation with them. All the introductory material about Helen having a maths PhD and being completely uninvolved really pays off: they pay attention because they think she's logical and must know what she's talking about.

gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm

Fab, thanks OP. I've a podcast allergy, but will recommend it to people who like them. :)

Thats a good idea about asking for a family member/friend to listen for a time limited period as a present, I will try this with my eldest.

@ArabellaScott

Fab, thanks OP. I've a podcast allergy, but will recommend it to people who like them. :)

That podcast series is on a roll, Arabella. I'd strongly recommend the episode with Helen Joyce and a previous one on non-binary identity (linked here).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4353958-Helen-Joyce-on-Gender-A-wider-lens-podcast-with-Stella-OMalley-and-Sasha-Ayad

Oh what a great idea!

It's brilliant

An hour? Even Meghan Markle only asked for 40 minutes (hope it works though).

I have an unhealthy obsession with that podcast, and find myself itching with withdrawal symptoms and desperate anticipation as Friday draws near. Like some sad 1950s housewife awaiting the next installment of As The World Turns or something.

I need it to keep me sane.

It’s a wonderful podcast. The interaction between Sasha and Stella results in a really broad analysis of their topic of discussion.
And I have to say, that Helen Joyce makes the perfect guest.

Helen Joyce has been interviewed many times and comes across as so rational and knowledgeable on the subject.

I personally sent a link to the Savage Minds podcast where the marvellously - voiced Julian Vigo interviewed Dr David Bell of the Tavistock to a pal o'mine. That worked too. She took away her daughter's binder.....

Thrilled to hear that, rabbitwoman. I've sent my sister a copy of Trans to read now and I hope that will do the trick.

I'll then have to work out how far I want to rehabilitate our relationship. I used to think she was really savvy and a good feminist. Now I know that she's one of those feminists who subconsciously centres men I'm having a touch of 'My sister the Stasi informer'.

shedbuilder

It is constantly frustrating to me in conversations on this subject that the truth, the facts just aren't out there. All my pal's are so keen to be seen as supportive, accepting, kind.... and of course they are being schooled by their teenagers who are feeding them all the rubbish they get from tik tok etc....

My pal was saying that she had so much to learn and didn't know where to start so I quietly sent her a link saying something like 'this will tell you everything you need to know....' and she was appalled. She had never heard that the Tavistock had no data on patient outcomes : that it could lead to infertility : that it was gay conversion therapy..... and I was so cross, thinking, well, WHY don't you know? You have a child wearing a binder, where did you go for information, who did advise you?! (I didn't say that out loud....)

We had a chat about it afterwards and I said that as soon as people realise the truth the facts speak for themselves.... But it's hard to get people to believe that something so audacious is actually really happening in the actual NHS....

Having shared this with a friend, they have suggested this TV programme as a way of getting a foot in the door. It's The Town that Caught Tourettes and it's a story of social contagion and how some people are so horrified at the thought of it being a psychological illness that they'll look everywhere to find a physical fix:

@rabbitwoman

shedbuilder

It is constantly frustrating to me in conversations on this subject that the truth, the facts just aren't out there. All my pal's are so keen to be seen as supportive, accepting, kind.... and of course they are being schooled by their teenagers who are feeding them all the rubbish they get from tik tok etc....

My pal was saying that she had so much to learn and didn't know where to start so I quietly sent her a link saying something like 'this will tell you everything you need to know....' and she was appalled. She had never heard that the Tavistock had no data on patient outcomes : that it could lead to infertility : that it was gay conversion therapy..... and I was so cross, thinking, well, WHY don't you know? You have a child wearing a binder, where did you go for information, who did advise you?! (I didn't say that out loud....)

We had a chat about it afterwards and I said that as soon as people realise the truth the facts speak for themselves.... But it's hard to get people to believe that something so audacious is actually really happening in the actual NHS....

To be fair. Lots of posters here, me included, would admit that until a few years ago we were largely similar to your friend. I never gave it much thought apart from having a desire to be kind to people I viewed as vulnerable and living difficult lives. I did have some reservations re obvious issues like women's sport but I never gave them a huge amount of thought. I guess because I just assumed good sense and fairness would win out. And I definitely had a couple of 'wtf' moments when reading comments on websites like TheMarySue. A friend shocked me around that time by being disparaging about the (his words) 'ridiculously growing LGBTQ-alphabet soup.' I genuinely assumed he was homophobic.

But it wasn't until the protest by lesbian women at London Pride in 2018 that that I really started reading up on it. I was initially baffled by what the hell was going on as I had no idea that such a schism existed. I was genuinely clueless but once I read up on it, I've had a huge change of opinion. And even now, feeling very strongly about it, I find myself incredibly, incredibly wary about what I can say to friends. I tend to suss them out for weeks/months before I even begin to be open about how I view what's happening. I've had some friends agree with me with relief as they feel the same. I've had some be shocked as they had no idea. And I've had some where I've just backed right off because it's clear our friendship would end immediately if they knew my mind and I don't want that.