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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feeling sick

49 replies

catzwhiskas · 21/09/2021 19:21

So a man killed a woman and three children in Derbyshire and another man kills another woman in South London. In three days. Anyone organising a vigil/ reclaim the night ? How dare anybody claim that we can ever be safe while men are roaming free to go wherever they want. So sad for everyone who knew these women and children. And so fucking angry.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 22/09/2021 01:32

I mean the fella who did it. I'd put money on an appalling long trail of other victims. I'd be surprised if the police haven't had reports in the past.

Going from nothing to this is just not how it goes. There will be other victims. Maybe of things seen as trivial but they will be there.

DoesHePlayTheFiddle · 22/09/2021 02:12

Yes.
Hatred of women is endemic.

I'll check that word in a minute...

DoesHePlayTheFiddle · 22/09/2021 02:14

Yes, that's the one. Commonly found in a particular place or group, ie men.

scoopydoopy · 22/09/2021 07:24

Truly awful :(

MadameKali · 22/09/2021 09:02

I feel like my will is destroyed at the minute.

So many awful things happening to women at the hands of men. I genuinely feel like no one gives a fuck. My so-called feminist friends don't even seem to comment on it.

I feel helpless to do anything. When I raise the subject I see people's eyes glazing over and get a sense that they're thinking "oh, god she's on one again".

Really disheartened at the minute and think a I need some time away from the subject of men's violence against women but it's inescapable. Yet people I know seem to be oblivious.

Sorry feeling really down about this at the minute.

MadameKali · 22/09/2021 09:03

Apologies my last post might read that I'm making this all about me. That wasn't my intention.

CreepingDeath · 22/09/2021 09:16

@MadameKali

I feel like my will is destroyed at the minute.

So many awful things happening to women at the hands of men. I genuinely feel like no one gives a fuck. My so-called feminist friends don't even seem to comment on it.

I feel helpless to do anything. When I raise the subject I see people's eyes glazing over and get a sense that they're thinking "oh, god she's on one again".

Really disheartened at the minute and think a I need some time away from the subject of men's violence against women but it's inescapable. Yet people I know seem to be oblivious.

Sorry feeling really down about this at the minute.

I know, it’s so depressing and disheartening when you try to talk to people about this and they just turn away or don’t care. They don’t see because they don’t want to see, because it’s too uncomfortable to think that this is not just an aberration but actually part of a pattern, and the natural consequence of a deeply misogynistic society. Because acknowledging that would mean that men actually need to change their behaviour, and make an effort. And they’re not prepared to do that, so they deflect.

Someone will be along in a minute to tell us that men get killed too (yeah, by other men!), and what about the poor menz feelings.

Packingsoapandwater · 22/09/2021 09:16

@NiceGerbil

Packings they aren't demons.. Nor are they (usually) insane.

They are men produced (usually) by our society who are often in normal jobs with normal friends etc.

That's the problem.

The fact that so many men feel some level of antipathy towards women.

From mild resentment over certain things to boiling rage.

The results for women and girls range from 'trivial' to appalling. And at the lower end it's everyday stuff.

The fact that men have be shown to have way more propensity to having things which are harmful to women and girls as something they find sexually exciting. Voyeurism. Stealing knickers. Peeping toms. I mean and just loads of stuff. Upskirting etc. I mean creepy fuckers are all over the place.

The fact that dominating/ humiliating/ upsetting us is very popular is reflected in mainstream porn. Very popular. Standard now. Also finding ways to watch us when we should have privacy. I mean so much stuff.

The fact that this antipathy is common even if mostly at the lower end is something else that really needs to be addressed. No idea how.

But is this not the problem? Portraying these men as "normal" blokes, rather than evidence of a dangerous strain of psychopathy in society?

No stable individual murders three children and a woman in a twelve hour period.

Such men maybe in normal jobs with normal friends, but they are not normal. Whether society has fed their pathology or not, it is about time society stopped being so maudlin over these incidents and started to treat these individuals for what they are: a poison in society.

It takes a lot to kill someone. It's not easy. Some former soldiers have come out and tried to make this point, particularly about strangulation and "sex games gone wrong", saying it's basically impossible to accidentally strangle someone. But films and TV make society believe it's something that can just happen.

We are not a gun carrying society (and even then, shooting is not the mild action depicted in films), so whatever happened, assuming no fire or fumes, had to have been extraordinarily violent and sustained.

If someone can do what this man has, then there's something really fucking wrong with them. And it's about time we stared that reality in the face. The numbers involved should be more of a wake up call.

FemaleAndLearning · 22/09/2021 09:31

Update from the metro. The boyfriend of the mother has been charged.
metro.co.uk/2021/09/21/killamarsh-suspect-in-hospital-with-self-inflicted-stab-wounds-15292713/

HopeClearwater · 22/09/2021 10:59

The boyfriend of the mother has been charged.

As expected, then.

FemaleAndLearning · 22/09/2021 11:21

Yes totally predictable.

sawdustformypony · 22/09/2021 17:50

what about the poor menz feelings.

No need to worry about that, surely.

NiceGerbil · 22/09/2021 21:26

Packing have to disagree sorry.

Psychopathy doesn't = violent murderer etc.

Psychopaths can and do live without harming anyone. Have jobs family etc.

If it's a strain of psychopathy in society. Why do women and girls face what they do globally? Why in certain circumstances will 'normal' men rape eg war? Why are men do much more likely to be this way, it's the same society as women live in? Why have women been at risk of control assault rape murder from men all over the world forever?

VAWG comes in many forms and of varying severity.

Does it take a psychopath to upskirt? To say something obscene to a girl on the way home from school?

To flash? To sexually assault a classmate in school?

Escalation- if a man starts as a flasher and over time does worse until he murders. Was he always a psychopath?

What about societies where the violence against women and girls including murder is much more prevalent than here. Those countries produce more psychopaths?

Or is something else going on.

HopeClearwater · 22/09/2021 22:29

Agree with NiceGerbil above. I don’t think it’s psychopathy. For example, both I and another poster agreed that it was predictable that the person arrested was the mother’s boyfriend. And I also mentioned the ‘self inflicted minor injuries’ which often happens when the defence is going to be ‘suicide pact’ where an old man kills his wife. Why is it predictable? Why does this response occur? It must be a societal thing.

NiceGerbil · 23/09/2021 01:07

Because of deeply entrenched views that have been around forever and still exist to a greater or lesser extent everywhere.

Biblical stuff essentially here. And the Victorians didn't help. I'm not a history person so probably lots else!

Men are people. Leaders decision makers etc.
Women are possessions. They essentially are there to support men, for sex and babies etc.
And it's hierarchical.

Women/ girls stepping out of line. Behaving in ways that are not approved of. Being independent. Not putting their men first. Going against them. Leaving. Etc.

Well if that's how you see things even really deep down. Then it's just unthinkable. You call the shots.

It's possessions being punished for defiance. Generally.

Children are part of women and also possessions of the man.

I know in general that sounds like bonkers feminist stuff.

Things that point to it-

Domestic violence being seen as a matter for the family not outsiders pretty much by everyone until relatively recently. It took a lot of work to raise awareness. The police still fail massively in this area.

The way society reacts to a stranger murdering a woman then to a man she is/ was in a relationship with.

Marital rape in England (not sure about rest of UK) was criminalised in the early 90s. The fucking early 90s!
And is still not seen the same way as rape by someone not married/ partnered to her. So many threads on here. He did xyz. Voyeurism. Sexual assault. Etc. Loads of posters minimising it. Who I'm sure would say different if it was a stranger (I hope so anyway!).

So it all stems from some incredibly deep seated, usually totally subconscious. Societal views about men and women and roles etc. Ones that go back forever.

nosafeguardingadults · 23/09/2021 08:28

Domestic violence they don't care not enough people care. They see you as rubbish they tread on, you not human being to them just a drain on their time and money.

People getting fed up of me maybe but I'm going down fighting for other victims who maybe have chance in future if things were changed. Too late to for me to rebuild my life now. Want to try hard to speak out as much as when still alive.

Probably some of you think I'm mental. Am traumatised and as much trauma from experiences of trying to get help, as from physical violenc but not mental.

My case not just me. It's happening like this for other victims. Many won't get murdered but will be forced to live with the risk and fear everyday cos places won't help and nowhere safe to live so trapped.. If not murdered, they'll be regularly abused and maybe more injuries and definitely mentally damaged.

Cos places meant to help some so good kind people but I despair of it ever getting better safer for women if there's a denial of how mixed and not good enough too often the help is.

They not all saints people working in domestic abuse services and big postcode lottery if any good or not. Some do so much to help. Wonderful kind people and if only all of them were like them. Problem is some others fail women badly. Not always their fault. Funding not enough but sometimes is more than that. Some are not good people or bad at the job maybe both sometimes. When try to speak out, nowhere wants to know. Safeguarding fails all the other place, they're rife and when try to report no one wants to know.

There's no cqc or Ofsted type inspection. Nothing to check quality of support. You advised by legal helplines to take it further but how can vulnerable women at risk of being killed, follow a compliant to the top. They take advantage of you being vulnerable. Not safe when violent man might find out.

Worse of all hundred percent worse than police is local councils. Housing departments in particular but social services and othev services too. Some good wonderful ones but many couldn't give flying shit. They treat like a piece of rubbish that can thrown away and treated in a psychologically abusive manners. They lie and massively break laws and get away with it. They happy taking gamble on if woman will get killed. They hope you just destroyed mentally or physically instead or kill yourself. Cos then if woman is killed, they try to victim blame or lessons will learn lie they always say.

Many places don't give a shit. They do all they can do to not help. Go out of their way to break the law. They relieved if you suicide cos they get away with not helping, breaking law, no following guidelines, and they get to blame victim for being "mental".

Lots of law already here no new ones needed as much as enforcing the ones we already hhave that are meant to pprotect women and girls victim of violence. Just problem is enforcing them.

Violence against women won't change. WWhere's the safe rehousing for victim's? Often nnowhere safe to go so many go back. Some of the councils behave like abusers. They gaslight and lie.

I post about it but people don't seem to want to believe me or maybe some do bbut assume it's not common experience . Look at how many domestic violence murders every week. How many tried to get help but were turned away or let down?

nosafeguardingadults · 23/09/2021 08:43

Is an obsession with people police with domestic violence. Calling them doesn't always help and many times not cos of police. It's other places especially abusive councils. Not all are but some are mentally abusive in their dealings with victims of violence and abuse. They're bad people. No conscience. Lying and gaslighting and openly breaking the law. So confident they are in doing it. They do it when written evidence and paper trail of what they're doing. They know they get away with it cos vulnerable domestic violence victims often can't complain cos too dangerous.

Police being seen as solution. Maybr some cases but doesn't help many of them. Not without safe rehousing and other support for when you frightened and traumatised. Some wonderful domestic abuse organisations and council places and people helping but lottery if you get that cos some are very bad and leave you more traumatised and vulnerable than ever. I'm never trusting any of them ever again. My life is over. Too late. Want to raise awareness in tiny hope helps other victims in future. Know probably won't cos don't things will change cos think we not seen as worth the help. Costs too much money to help us.

It's not going to change cos don't think people like me trying to post raising awareness will be listened to. Maybe some on here but not by people who can help in charge of funding and organisating and managing things. We're not seen as worthy of or deserving being safe. Our lives are seem as worthless.

NiceGerbil · 03/10/2021 22:41

Sorry just looking at some threads I'm on and realised no one replied @nosafeguardingadults.

I appreciate your posts personally and I understand that your posting is very personal to you.

It must take a lot to write it down.

I never know what to say because yes it's awful and has been for years.

I don't know as much about the trainings through so many services etc.

I do know that the media is constantly reporting about women / and children being murdered by a partner/ ex/ obsessed man. And the woman had asked police for help, reported violent incidents and threats, called and said I know he's going to hurt/ kill me. Multiple times. And the police had done nothing because well. It's everyday, women get hysterical and exaggerate and embellish etc and it's probably no where near that bad.

And then there's murder often really violent. And they say. Sorry. Lessons learned. And that's that.

Fuckers.

You're right they don't give a shit.

I imagine that when a woman they know about is murdered. They think not oh god we failed what have we done etc.. But oh shit. No one could have known that. These women say this stuff all the time.

I just wanted to say that as didn't want to leave your posts hanging.

NiceGerbil · 03/10/2021 22:42

'I don't know as much about the trainings through so many services etc.'

Trainings should be failings.

Maskless · 04/10/2021 20:27

Women have SO much power.

We just don't bother to use it.

What will it take to rouse women to take to the streets?

How did the suffrage leaders ignite tens of thousands of women to take part in marches, and to break the law, knowing that if caught they would go to prison.

There is no sisterhood amongst most women. They only care about their immediate family - husband, and kids, then their parents and siblings, then their close friends and anyone else who shares their blood.

There seems to be few women who feel a strong loyalty or kinship towards the great mass of women they don't even know.

I've heard women say they think a battereed wife must have done something to "deserve" it.

I've heard women say they didn't call the police when their next door neighbour was being beaten, because she "didn't want to get involved".

I recall reading once about a place in which if a husband was violent to his wife all the women of the neighbourhood would haul him out and shame and berate him (maybe worse, I cannot recall). And didn't the women of Ancient Greece go on a sex strike?

NiceGerbil · 04/10/2021 20:36

Society as a whole moved to all about the individual, started decades ago.

No such thing as society, remember?

Women are a part of society. And individuals. Same as men.

IME women are the ones who do the things to help others. Men in general are way more self centred.

Yet it's women who get criticism. As per your post.

We have to be. Not bog standard members of society with their own shit to deal with. But better. Kinder. Stronger. Etc.

Men could support us. They have control of the money, the govt, big business, the justice system etc.

But as ever women are doing it wrong.

NiceGerbil · 04/10/2021 20:41

Tell me more about all this power?

Tell me more about how women. Who invisibly keep society ticking over. Giving more to charity. Volunteering. Bringing up children. Working. Looking after older relatives/ disabled children etc.

Tell me more about our power? Which areas do we hold so much power?

That's a genuine question.

Marching does fuck all.

Burn down buildings and go to prison? Who's going to look after grandpa? The kids? How will the family cope with her income gone?

Tell me more about the power women have and how we are failing.

midgedude · 04/10/2021 20:42

This has made me think of the Icelandic women's strike
Which does seem to have triggered some society change ?

NiceGerbil · 04/10/2021 20:50

Can you see that happening here?

They stopped everything.

But here and now.

You can't stop your caring responsibilities.
You could get the sack.
Being seen as one of those women. Detrimental at work.

Iceland is a very different place.

It's not going to happen.

Imagine if none of the female NHS staff turned up one day.
They would be CLOBBERED. by society media.

All the women who drive buses tubes. Work for councils. Do care work. Etc.

Didn't turn up.

Women would not get taken seriously in what we need.

We would be vilified.

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