Times Scotland article - 16 and 17 year olds referred for surgery

[BeanieSue]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-doctors-approved-breast-removal-for-51-trans-teenagers-qvkmz8r2c

I don't have a share token. I can only hope the Scottish newspapers report on this too.

I was just about to start a thread about it:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ff0b02b0-1a5d-11ec-8d6d-67649e90fafa?shareToken=7cc2d565aefbf1b22d9c61dab8cf5ca0

Only yesterday we had someone on here insisting loudly that "under 18-year-olds are NOT having surgery"...

Even if it hasn't happened in England, it's not terribly reassuring when they support groups advocating for that, and it is happening in various countries.

I believe we've seen this performed at 13 in the USA.

But anyway, although thanks to the Times for the story, how is this a comprehensible way to start off the article?

More than 50 transgender boys under the age of 18 have been approved for double mastectomies in Scotland, it has been revealed.

At least they get to "born as female" (yuck) in a couple of paragraphs, but this is seriously confusing to the uninitiated.

Not sure if I'm reading it correctly - is there any information on the ages of the children when surgery was performed?

It's not happening and if it is It's not that many .....

We are back to n+1 with how many teenagers making permanent changes to their bodies in a way they might regret given the brain doesn't fully developed until your twenties, is too many.

All backed by adults who have not made and have no intention of making these same changes.

Why are we doing this

They don't seem to have concrete information on that - it's a bit woolly.

In theory, those as young as 17 can undergo the procedure, and children aged 16 have been “referred for assessment for surgery”.

...

A Scottish government spokesman said: “A small number of young adults have been referred for chest reconstruction surgery at 17. However, further assessments required prior to surgery mean that, in practice, it is unlikely the procedure would take place before an individual is 18.

You get the impression of them being lined up to do it ASAP as soon as legally permitted, with preparations beforehand.

The figures I’ve read say that 200 children a year are saying they are trans, in Scotland, of all ages. So this number of 50, 16 and 17 year olds is incredibly high! It’s absolutely shocking.

And we all know the term “breast reconstruction” surgery is deliberately confusing. The operation’s aim is the exact opposite!

The operation’s aim is the exact opposite!

And, indeed, what is the purpose?

In their world view, female breasts are perfectly normal for teenage "boys". They're more common than any DSD, and we've stopped performing unnecessary surgery on children with DSDs.

So why the unnecessary surgery on "boys" with healthy breasts?

Yet in 2019 Sandyford Clinic said this.

In their world view, female breasts are perfectly normal for teenage "boys". They're more common than any DSD, and we've stopped performing unnecessary surgery on children with DSDs

That is the million dollar question. Why must adults have self ID so they don't have to do anything besides declare themselves whilst simultaneously children must have access to puberty blockers and surgery..

Yes, why is it that not everyone with penis is a man or not everyone with a cervix is a woman...then why can't it be that not everyone with breasts is a woman.

Very worrying that it doesn't seem to be known whether any of these adolescents were operated on before the age of 18, saying " it is unlikely" is hardly reassuring. Why don't they know? Or do they know and don't wish to admit that minors are receiving double mastectomies?

The article says Fifty-one teenagers aged 16 and 17 who were born as females were sent to hospitals in England to undergo further assessment for “specialist chest reconstruction” over the past six years

I suppose it's possible that they then changed their minds having had the consultations about double mastectomies ? Maybe if they came across some ethical safeguarding aware medics who pointed out that 16 / 17 is very young to decide to have both your breasts removed, especially when you haven't yet reached full maturity? But if there were no ethical medics around, just those signed up to the trans mantras then.....

ForWomenScot were tweeting about this the other day, so that's probably where The Times got the story. I found this absolutely horrifying. This young person's mental health appears to be in a very bad way and the body dysmorphia is clearly a psychological issue. In what world do we now perform surgery to try to alleviate a psychological problem which research indicates usually gets a lot better at the end of puberty anyway?

(The teenager in question appears to be 16, judging by the FWS post - not sure of its source. The account is written by one of Sam's parents, justifying why they paid for the surgery privately to avoid the long waiting list on the NHS, and they say that Sam had been referred for the surgery at the age of 16.)

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1439889279300349953?s=20

How can you be fully informed when you haven't even seen your breasts. And how did Sam take a photo?

But yes, I saw FWS tweets. Apparently in the initial FOI they denied ever gaving referred under 18s. It was only when they spotted the case report that the NHS Trust admitted it. The child in the reported case had surgery at 17.

One of the few things that was clear from Emma Barnett's interview with Christine Jardine on WH yesterday is that the age of consent to treatment is different in Scotland.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

ForWomenScot were tweeting about this the other day, so that's probably where The Times got the story. I found this absolutely horrifying. This young person's mental health appears to be in a very bad way and the body dysmorphia is clearly a psychological issue. In what world do we now perform surgery to try to alleviate a psychological problem which research indicates usually gets a lot better at the end of puberty anyway?

Would they remove the ribs and molars of a teenager with anorexia to make them look thinner? How can any surgeon ethically go through with doing this to anyone, let alone a child?

This is going to be a massive scandal. How many children will be harmed first though?

I'd be interested to know what other cosmetic surgeries are funded so readily by the NHS? Particularly those deemed cosmetic but that have a medical purpose...
The most comparable example would be a teen girl with very large breasts causing back pain, who wants a breast reduction. Would they do that as readily as the medically non-essential mastectomy?

The whole "one rule for the sparkly special trans people, another for everyone else" things boils my piss. And it's rather frightening evidence of how this ideology has infiltrated different levels of different organisations. Another example is around suicidal ideation. This is something that in general is treated badly by the NHS (mental health care in general is poor), but there are layers of psychiatric (non)understanding, and cultural reasons built up over decades if not centuries, why certain patients are basically deemed unhelpable and left to potentially kill themselves. Often labelled attention seekers etc even when it's obvious they're reeling from early abuse and so on. But suddenly all this psychiatric "knowledge" and ways of approaching things is discarded as soon as it's a trans issue and suicidal ideation is taken seriously and somehow the clinching argument. It's really odd the way established knowledge and practices are just ignored like this (normally trying to change them is an uphill battle over decades).

The substantial disconnect in the provision of services for people, many of which seem to rely upon a foundation of suicide ideation or threats, will become readily apparent at some point. People will question why the NHS was so willing to be coerced by one group and ignore the needs of vast numbers of people who need MH support or treatment for other conditions.

I remember going to see two doctors at the age of 27 and married, asking to be sterilized so I couldn't become pregnant. Both absolutely point blank refused to even consider it at my age. No discussion, nothing.
And actually, they turned out to be right, I did charge my mind.

@Kendodd

I remember going to see two doctors at the age of 27 and married, asking to be sterilized so I couldn't become pregnant. Both absolutely point blank refused to even consider it at my age. No discussion, nothing. And actually, they turned out to be right, I did charge my mind.

A friend likewise requested sterilisation. Her GP insisted that she had to wait 5 years to see if she changed her mind. She didn't, she had the sterilisation.

She, too, changed her mind. Fair play to her, given the age of her and her spouse and that they couldn't afford the time to go on NHS waiting lists, they paid privately for their (successful) IVF.

I'm split on this. I do think a number of adults are denied services but we have no idea how many are like you and my friend in this because we don't have data. (tbh, it's such a sensitive area, I've no idea how many people would be OK about being asked if they changed their mind etc.)

The crux of all this starts IMO with the construction of the 'trans child'. Which immediately seems to set them apart from the normal safeguarding of children.

This narrative, largely pushed by lobby groups like Mermaids should never have been allowed a foothold in the medical community. As a group they should have remained as children assessed for/experiencing gender dysphoria and not 'trans children'.

This is the article from a child mental health journal about the 16 year old who was referred, approved and on a waiting list (estimated time before op: 3 months) before deciding to have the double mastectomy done privately at 16.5 years old.

It was subsequent to this that the NHS said zero under 18s were referred for this surgery (which they call chest reconstruction)