Layla Moran on LBC earlier - won’t define a woman & spouting the suicide stats

[ShadesOfMagenta]

I only caught the end of this show but it was Tom Swarbrick interviewing Layla Moran but following on from the thread about Ed Davey on Marr - I thought it would be good to post here.

I was so cross about it that I’ve made a transcript.

From 2 hours 55 mins 50 seconds

TS: One of the other issues that I know the Lib Dems are strong on and that your party leader has been talking about is the issue of trans rights
LM:Hmm
TS:Sir Ed Davy has said that "Trans rights are Human Rights, Trans Women are Women, Trans Men are Men" What is the definition? What do the Lib Dems define a woman as?
LM: Yes, so, look..I.. there is nothing between Ed and I on this, and I think the thing we have got to keep in mind, you know I am a woman, I am also female. I am not just defined by my bits Tom, (laughs)
TS:No
LM: And I think most women would agree with that and when we are talking about this particular debate what I am really worried about is very much the heat that's in it, also the fact that we are all actually on the same side here, the people who suggest that you can't be a feminist and defend trans rights at the same time I think are wrong. What we are trying to defend against
TS:I come back to the question again of -how is a woman defined?
LM: How is a woman .. well it's (signs)
TS: What's your definition of woman?
LM: I am a woman, it is a gender, there are people who identify as women
TS: It's a sex
LS: Well so this is the thing and there are some people who don't necessarily define themselves in those ways, in that way
TS: Understood
LM: And it's really important that we respect how people define themselves
TS: Totally
LM: This is a key liberal principle. It's up to an individual to define themselves and gender is something that they can choose.
TS: But we won't write that into law?
LM: To flippantly suggest (and I'm not saying you are flippantly suggesting this just to be very clear) but to suggest that people wake up one morning and decide that they are something else, I think completely misunderstands the incredibly vulnerable situations that individuals find themselves in.
TS: Of course - and that is born out in the experiences of those people who have rung the program this afternoon. This is not an overnight decision it is a very very difficult process.
LM: Absolutely
TS:But why would we write into law the personal choices made by individuals that ought to be respected ,why would we write that into law that if you say that your identity is a woman you are legally a woman which is what the change in the Gender Recognition Act that the Lib Dems want to see would do
LM: Because by writing it into law you afford protection and that protection is really needed...
TS: For whom?
LM: For that individual because
TS: What about the women?
LM: This is a minority groupwell they are women this is a minority group that disproportionately finds itself - you know - 1 in 2 transgender teens have said that they've tried to commit suicide
TS:Yeah
LM:The number 9 out of 10 transgender..
TS:And that's awful
LM: And they deserve our protection
TS:The definition then of woman is somebody who says there are a woman and that will be that could be put into law if that person says they are a woman
LM:After a lot of consideration and when I should say Tom I've got constituents of mine whose children have gone through this and we've discussed this at length and I have tried to help them and I think what people need to appreciate is that this is not simple, this is not easy, this is a really really personal thing. If you think about who you are as a person, this goes to the heart, to the depths of it and we have heard from their own experiences that they feel very often persecuted against, discriminated against and by allowing that definition in law, which by the way already exists you know - you can already have a gender recognition change in law currently
TS:Yes but not through self ID
LM:What we would do is we would make it more in line with other countries that have made these changes and by the way have not had any issues with them so we are just making it easier for very vulnerable people to be who they are and allow them to be who they want to be

A few things to note - these suicide stats are not robust.
Women have single sex spaces for our safety! Men are biologically stronger. Stating that men who identify as women doesn’t denigrate or target one individual.

You cannot coach grassroots football without a CRC/DBS - this is because (some) adults abuse kids. It’s safeguarding.

As for the - you don’t wake up one day & decide - you literally can with self-ID. Also what about Pip/Philip Bunce who does decide each day.

Always the emphasis on trans women - that’s because they are men & this is a patriarchy! Women in men’s spaces pose no physical threat to the men! That’s biology!

Used to be a science teacher.

Education's loss is politics's gain.

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Ah yes Layla. I wonder how that beard is progressing 🤔

@Jaysmith71

Used to be a science teacher.

Education's loss is politics's gain.

Oof. How much damage can one woman do?

Haven't seen so much of her since she got arrested for dv, I think.

Moran has always expressed a tenuous grasp of science, and she has never attempted to challenge that view.

Her religious belief in souls, and her conviction that she can see into a person and their soul, has to obviously be respected...but not necessarily agreed-with. It's the same as with those who believe in intelligent design rather than natural selection (evolution); smile nicely but make it clear that they won't be believed.

I suspect Moran struggled with scientific concepts and was never rightly comfortable with them. So joining a political party where she can discount science all day must have been attractive.

I see someone in their soul and as a person. I do not really care whether they have a male body

If you want to write it into law, Layla, you need to define it. In words.
You are going to find it difficult to provide legal protections for women if you want to get rid of the 'female' definition and replace it with 'whatever Layla thinks'.

If you truly thought a group deserved protection you'd be able to define them in law at the very least.

At least if LDs think that there aren't actually spaces where men can't go they avoid the tricky question of 'draft a definitive policy that includes women but excludes men'.

what people need to appreciate is that this is not simple, this is not easy, this is a really really personal thing

It's not though, is it. There's no other category that an individual can just identify into. There's no other category that runs the risk of being redefined (in law!) as a feeling.

We seem to be stuck on the "but they're really really sad and they really really want their own way" when in any other situation this wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Even using fake suicide stats to emphasise how very sad a group of people might be is irrelevant.

It’s really eye-opening to see a transcript of someone deliberately avoiding answering the question.

It’s so dishonest.

Here y'are Layla (got me on my knees)

GCSE Biology (AQA):

Sexual reproduction involves the joining (fusion) of male and female
gametes:
• sperm and egg cells in animals
• pollen and egg cells in flowering plants.
In sexual reproduction there is mixing of genetic information which leads to variety in the offspring.

filestore.aqa.org.uk/resources/biology/specifications/AQA-8461-SP-2016.PDF

Suzanne Moore on LBC discussing this now.

So according to Layla, when the time came for kids, my husband could have identified as a woman and done the whole pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding thing instead of me?

What a missed opportunity!

LM: And it's really important that we respect how people define themselves

Unless you are a woman, then you are what we say you are. We won't respect you needs, wishes or the words you need to define yourself.

Don't you despair to hear an MP talking such drivel?

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Don't you despair to hear an MP talking such drivel?

Yep, we are supposed to trust them on education, health, security, environment etc yet they sound unhinged.

@PronounssheRa

LM: And it's really important that we respect how people define themselves

Unless you are a woman, then you are what we say you are. We won't respect you needs, wishes or the words you need to define yourself.

Or definitions that has a financial aspect to them. I can't identify as 65 and claim a state pension. I can't identify as disabled and claim PIP. (To be fair, neither can some disabled people). I can't identify into receiving an Army pension, I can't identify into living in a tax haven, I can't identify as having a different nationality, although I could apply to have a different nationality - what if I thought the process was too longwinded and demeaning? Could I self-id as Japanese and emigrate there without completing the paperwork? No.

Access to women-only spaces is "free". It doesn't cost the government anything. If trans people were asking for some financial benefit as a result of their self-identity, this would have been shut down a long time ago. As there is no cost to the powers that be, it's been seen as fair game.

Have not has

The Lib-Dems really are going all out to make themselves unelectable aren't they...

Do they genuinely not realise that the vast majority of the public think that TWAM and that single sex spaces are important...

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

The Lib-Dems really are going all out to make themselves unelectable aren't they...

Do they genuinely not realise that the vast majority of the public think that TWAM and that single sex spaces are important...

If they don't know, they will soon.

What is a woman? “LM: I am a woman, it is a gender, there are people who identify as women.”

That doesn’t answer the question! She’s just said - I am one, other people identify as one, and it’s a “gender”. But what do her and the people who identify as women have in common? And what is a “gender”? I also notice she slyly stated shes “not defined” by her “bits”, which makes it seem as if gender critical feminists are somehow claiming that women are reducible to, or definable in terms of their genitals. The definition of woman is biological female, but that doesn’t define who women are.

And stated so baldly it’s a very odd position. Trans women deeply, personally feel they are women and so the liberal thing to do is to let people decide what they are and self define themselves. And in addition these people are really vulnerable and suicidal and that’s why it has to be written into law. It just … doesn’t make any logical sense at all. There is no principle of liberalism which states that people can just claim anything about themselves. I can’t shave a few years off my age, I can’t claim to be royalty … there is no right to identify as something which you aren’t! It doesn’t matter how deeply I feel something to be the case … it doesn’t make it so.

And then the stuff about suicide and vulnerability is entirely besides the point. A complete non sequitur. These people are mentally unwell and suicidal so … society should go along with their self declared identity? Eh? Not to sound horribly unkind , but this seems very much like she’s saying their suicide risk will be increased if we don’t nod along and agree they are women - but since when is there any expectation that we have to go along with what suicidal people think?

It's the perfect doorstep question isn't it for every Lib Dem knocker.

Ed Davey has said that women must no longer have any single sex spaces - showers, changing rooms, hospital wards, intimate medical treatment, refuges etc. Men must be allowed in all of them Why should any woman vote for you?

Fuck’s sake. They have had YEARS to come up with a cohesive position on this. They of all parties should be able to find a way forward, to draw up practical policies to improve trans healthcare, mental health (for everyone, all teens and children especially), ringfence the necessary single sex spaces while promote third or fourth spaces for trans users. And still they mumble and fudge and deflect. I am almost embarrassed for them.

[quote ShadesOfMagenta]www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Trouble is Crouton19 - there is no coherent position about believing that men magically transform into women when they say so. It can only ever be enforced by threats and intimidation because it's all bollox.

Why do journalists never challenge the suicide stats. Grrrrr. And they never ask whether teenage girls will be expected to undress in front of males.

Another layer of soil on the coffin of the Lib Dems, after Ed Davey this AM and now this nonsense. What will be written on the headstone I wonder...?