The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

[MaudTheInvincible]

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

@Awiltu

MishyJDI It's about congruence. Internal mind with external body presentation.

If the important thing is for mind and body to "match", why is changing the body the only valid option? Why isn't it equally valid to change the mind so that it is congruent with the body?

This. This is the question I wish someone would bloody well answer, properly.

From the London Women's Centre website:

"Symptoms include:

Vaginal dryness
Redness and itching of the genitalia
Burning sensation in the vagina
Discharge
Burning sensation when urinating
Urgency with urination
Urinary incontinence
Frequent water infections, or urinary tract infections (UTIs)
Painful intercourse; decreased lubrication during sexual activity
Bleeding or discomfort after intercourse
Tightening and shortening of the vaginal canal"

Sounds really non-serious, yeah.

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it, I would assume they're safe in the appropriate dose, and I make no claim whatsoever to know more than endocrinologists on this. I don't know why you are, to be honest.

Used in the extreme and rare cases of precocious puberty to delay puberty not stop it and then artificially attempt to manufacture a totally different puberty.

Dangerous to assume anything without evidence as pointed out in the NICE report.

Gender identity refers to our sense of who we are and how we see and describe ourselves. For some, this can cause distress when sex doesn’t match up. and that’s gender dysphoria. No one should be told they have to be a certain way or look a certain way. But if they want to, then that’s down to them and being on something that stops that distress I’m all for.

This makes it sound as thought it's a type of cosmetic treatment, like cosmetic surgery. It's all about someone disliking the way they look.

Do you think that children should also be getting other cosmetic treatments on the NHS if they dislike other aspects of their appearance?

And you still haven't explained what the relationship is between 'gender identity' and sex, and what you mean by 'match up'. In what way do you believe 'gender identity' should 'match up' with someone's sex?

Quote from Buck Angel:

Atrophy. Almost killed me. I am a transsexual man. I transitioned from a woman to a man over 20 years ago. I am an experiment. No one ever told me about atrophy. EVER. I suffered for years with debilitating cramps. Mostly after sex. The gynecologists, well the ones that would see me and many would not, would say “ oh thats normal pain” what the hell is normal pain? They said that because they had no clue. They just kept giving me testosterone and the pain just kept coming. One day I passed out. Fever. Emergency room. Infection. Sepsis. They said “ wow if you waited five more minutes you might be dead” They had no clue. After years of testosterone on my reproductive system is had atrophied. Beyond belief the doctor said. He had never seen anything like this. My cervix fused to my uterus. An infection formed. This was the cramping. The infection burst. This is the sepsis. Death did not happen. I am here today because of my amazing doctors in Mexico.

www.instagram.com/p/Bz57jmKjtTj/?igshid=1akmvcza1fo6x

Atrophy is a serious condition.

It's not even experimenting on children. If it was experimenting there would be a study, a control, data would be kept, long term tracking of both persisters and desisters. Comparing the current cohort to previous cohorts, childhood onset to teen onset to adult onset dysphoria.

@Tootsweets23

Only someone who hasn't experienced it would call vaginal atrophy "non-serious". Or someone who doesn't give two shits about women having an enjoyable sex life.

Yeah

I had to google it, sounds fucking awful

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it

They are also given for endometriosis and the directions state clearly that they can be prescribed just once for six months. The affect on women is considered so dangerous that after that once session they must not be prescribed again.

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it, I would assume they're safe in the appropriate dose

I have some experience with this. Puberty blockers are given to mainly girls when they start puberty before the age of 8. The goal is to get them to around 8-9 years old depending on how old they are when they start showing signs. Pb are given for around a year, year and a half max - because of the often bad side effects.
Then the child is taken off them and puberty continues.

Unlike the treatment for trans children. They start at around 10 and will continue to 16. That is six times longer than normal. Six times!
Then 100% went onto cross sex hormones meaning puberty NEVER continues. The body is tricked into mimicking a process, not actually going through that process. No one is investigating how the end result compares to actual natural puberty.

Also I don't understand how this medical pathway helps children, children who take puberty blockers will see their peers develop in accordance to their natural path. Especially for girl children that are transboys this means they stay childlike whilst boys grow, making the dypshoria in these kids even bigger, it just reenforces they are not male. Transgirls have this less as they will stay small and more average girl length.
Even in medical treatment female humans get the raw deal...

@Tootsweets23

Only someone who hasn't experienced it would call vaginal atrophy "non-serious". Or someone who doesn't give two shits about women having an enjoyable sex life.

Quite. The hand-waving of medical conditions that have been caused by unevidenced treatment is chilling.

@VeryLongBeeeeep

From the London Women's Centre website:

"Symptoms include:

Vaginal dryness
Redness and itching of the genitalia
Burning sensation in the vagina
Discharge
Burning sensation when urinating
Urgency with urination
Urinary incontinence
Frequent water infections, or urinary tract infections (UTIs)
Painful intercourse; decreased lubrication during sexual activity
Bleeding or discomfort after intercourse
Tightening and shortening of the vaginal canal"

Sounds really non-serious, yeah.

Things that happen ONLY to women are NEVER serious. Didn't you get the memo.

If this happened to the penis people it wouldn't be played down.

Keira Bell et al attempting a Supreme Court appeal...

twitter.com/SianGriffiths6/status/1438878201376354309?s=19

@CharlieParley

sounds* like an anti-abortionist threatening doctors performing this integral part of health care.

* to me.

What you're missing here is that the NICE review has concluded that there is no evidence that puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones alleviate distress associated with gender dysphoria and given the severe and life-changing effects of these treatments these are therefore now officially no longer considered effective treatments.

Put yourself in the shoes of an endocrinologist. Now you're hearing the Tavistock say it's not their responsibility but the endocrinologist's. If I was an endocrinologist, I would now disengage from this particular part of my discipline.

That's because the clinic who sends me these patients takes no responsibility for properly assessing them (and an endocrinologist is not really in a position to decide whether a child diagnosed with gender dysphoria has undergone all necessary psychological assessments to confirm this is a suitable treatment for them.) So I'm entirel dependent on the clinic sending me only suitable patients. But the clinic now says, well, if you decide to prescribe to this child it's wholly your responsibility. So I need to have diagnostic criteria to assess the child. But I have none (there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the child's endocrine system after all and psychology is not the field I practice in).

The official body says the treatment risks damage without having the required efficacy. The referring clinic says you take the fall if they send you the wrong patient.

What would you do?

Well quite.

It's become apparent since the Prison JR that judicial reviews are not the ideal vehicle to resolve personal harm caused by poor legislation or medical protocol. Both the judges in the prison JR and this one have commented that it would be better to directly sue for damages. I expect down the line this is exactly what will start happening, possibly at a class action level.

It is to Keira's credit that she didn't sue because this was never about money for her. Based on today's ruling I suspect most of us would support her in now doing that if she wanted. It would appear, not unsurprisingly, that money talks and eventually that is what will make clinicians truly reconsider the evidence and efficacy of what they are doing.

for Keira. It's taken a lot of bravery to do what she did with the glare of the world on her. Despite today's ruling this genie cannot go back in the bottle now and that is down to her.

Conniethesensible that link you posted contains no answer to the question asked by Fariha31. Did you post it in error?

That article is of the oh it's just too complicated, also intersex therefore sex is not binary therefore trans people exist type. Admittedly, it's a particularly moronic one because it strawmans about ladybrains as if that's what we believe in and then debunks that (astonishingly badly btw). After that there's lots of waffle about hormones.

And all to argue the wholly unscientific claim that sex in humans is not binary.

Anyway, what they're not discussing at all (unscientifically or otherwise) is gender identity.

@sanluca

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it, I would assume they're safe in the appropriate dose

I have some experience with this. Puberty blockers are given to mainly girls when they start puberty before the age of 8. The goal is to get them to around 8-9 years old depending on how old they are when they start showing signs. Pb are given for around a year, year and a half max - because of the often bad side effects.
Then the child is taken off them and puberty continues.

Unlike the treatment for trans children. They start at around 10 and will continue to 16. That is six times longer than normal. Six times!
Then 100% went onto cross sex hormones meaning puberty NEVER continues. The body is tricked into mimicking a process, not actually going through that process. No one is investigating how the end result compares to actual natural puberty.

Also I don't understand how this medical pathway helps children, children who take puberty blockers will see their peers develop in accordance to their natural path. Especially for girl children that are transboys this means they stay childlike whilst boys grow, making the dypshoria in these kids even bigger, it just reenforces they are not male. Transgirls have this less as they will stay small and more average girl length.
Even in medical treatment female humans get the raw deal...

Most trans people are given PBs at around 14. Describing rare outliers like they are norm is only done when you know you argument is pretty vaccuous. Its not 100% but its high because only the most dysphoric ( less than 100 a year ) are given blockers. The argument falls over completely because many more do not take blockers but still take CSH. Are you seriously claiming that this less than 100 would not take CSH if it were not for PBs?

Calling out extreme, rare or downright out of context info facts says more about your ideology than these kids.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Quote from Buck Angel:

Atrophy. Almost killed me. I am a transsexual man. I transitioned from a woman to a man over 20 years ago. I am an experiment. No one ever told me about atrophy. EVER. I suffered for years with debilitating cramps. Mostly after sex. The gynecologists, well the ones that would see me and many would not, would say “ oh thats normal pain” what the hell is normal pain? They said that because they had no clue. They just kept giving me testosterone and the pain just kept coming. One day I passed out. Fever. Emergency room. Infection. Sepsis. They said “ wow if you waited five more minutes you might be dead” They had no clue. After years of testosterone on my reproductive system is had atrophied. Beyond belief the doctor said. He had never seen anything like this. My cervix fused to my uterus. An infection formed. This was the cramping. The infection burst. This is the sepsis. Death did not happen. I am here today because of my amazing doctors in Mexico.

www.instagram.com/p/Bz57jmKjtTj/?igshid=1akmvcza1fo6x

Atrophy is a serious condition.

He is suffering exactly the same as many woman. There are groups all over Facebook for this condition. It is not spoken about among women because it’s embarrassing but more are discussing it. Just go onto any of these GB and read about the difficulty adult women have in getting HRT. It can take years.

He isn’t unique. Welcome to the world of GPs not understand, learning, interested in women once we stop reproducing,

@Conniethesensible - that Scientific American link is a bit weird.It talks about how sexes arise, but not what they are. It says that sex is non binary, but doesn't explain what the other sexes are. It talks about "male gonads, female gonads or something in between. What would that "in between" gonad be? It also says that genitalia are secondary sex characteristics - which is both counter intuitive, and unexplained in the blog. It talks about XX males and XY females as being "Intersex", so clearly intersex is not any kind of third sex here....

There seems to be a great deal of categorical confusion and a complete absence of criticality. Do you have anything better to share?

• CharlieParley

<span class="italic">sounds* like an anti-abortionist threatening doctors performing this integral part of health care.</span>

* to me.

What you're missing here is that the NICE review has concluded that there is no evidence that puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones alleviate distress associated with gender dysphoria and given the severe and life-changing effects of these treatments these are therefore now officially no longer considered effective treatments.

Put yourself in the shoes of an endocrinologist. Now you're hearing the Tavistock say it's not their responsibility but the endocrinologist's. If I was an endocrinologist, I would now disengage from this particular part of my discipline

That's because the clinic who sends me these patients takes no responsibility for properly assessing them (and an endocrinologist is not really in a position to decide whether a child diagnosed with gender dysphoria has undergone all necessary psychological assessments to confirm this is a suitable treatment for them.) So I'm entirel dependent on the clinic sending me only suitable patients. But the clinic now says, well, if you decide to prescribe to this child it's wholly your responsibility. So I need to have diagnostic criteria to assess the child. But I have none (there is nothing whatsoever wrong with the child's endocrine system after all and psychology is not the field I practice in).

<strong>The official body says the treatment risks damage without having the required efficacy. The referring clinic says you take the fall if they send you the wrong patient.</strong>

What would you do?

So - what is the likely outcome? Are endocrinologists going to refuse to treat children/young people? I think I would, given the potential issues down the line. Detransitioners are increasing. Lawsuits imminent. Is it only going to be doctors like Helen Webberley, who operate outwith the UK who are going to be willing to treat children with dysphoria?

sanluca is talking about puberty blockers for precocious puberty, Disgusted. Not for children with dysphoria.

Well done Keira. This reversal doesn't diminish how important taking the case was. I will be proud to do more digging if required.

Gender identity refers to our sense of who we are and how we see and describe ourselves

Go on, tell me how someone with a feminine gender identity might see and describe themselves?

Oh yeah, you won’t, because you can’t without sounding like a sexist arsehole

I have vaginal atrophy, there is still limited research into it cos you know women! But estimates are that 50-70% of women over menopause age have it

And yes it’s bloody horrendous. I would never ever wish it on a young woman :(

I wonder if the covid vaccine for children, consent situation has had an influence on this too.

You've just skewered your whole argument DisgustedofManchester, puberty blockers were approved for use in precocious puberty to delay the onset of puberty, use in dysphoric children is to stop puberty.

@Awiltu

Why isn't it equally valid to change the mind so that it is congruent with the body?

Well in all fairness, People have tried to do exactly what you would like

We call it 'Conversion Therapy'

Not only does it not work / has never worked ... it has caused enormous damage to individuals over the years - Not just Transsexual People ... Lesbians ... Gay Men ...

Seriously ... do you want to return to that sort of abuse of the individual ?