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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

999 replies

MaudTheInvincible · 16/09/2021 19:19

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow
OP posts:
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7
ArabellaScott · 17/09/2021 16:12

I see, joolz. So therapy = bad very bad, and plastic surgery and artificial hormones = good and totally without side effects or harm. Got it.

Marmaladeagain · 17/09/2021 16:13

Questioning identity during puberty up to early 20s needs to become part of the specturm of entirely "normal" again and not something to medicalise/worry about/find a solution for.

It is a time of enormous hormonal change affecting every aspect of development and it's "normal" to question sexuality and identity and what societal pressures we may wish to reject/embrace.

I am very much of the opinion that 25 is a good age to reassess how you feel about those questions, without the regret of having entered a medicalised "solution".

We now hear that brains don't reach maturity until age 25 which seems to match with what I've always observed regarding emotional maturity. Even physically - people's bodies after 25 don't look anything like a younger version of themselves aged 19 or early 20s. Clearly "maturity" is not one destination reached in one birthday of becoming an "adult" at 18.

Yes there are lots of decision that can be made at 16 or 18 etc but all are reversible and have the potential that they help you learn from your mistakes and understand yourself. You can't learn a lot from a hysterectomy because you demanded it, other than the adults in society were not looking out or protecting you. Lots will then have that space to learn about themselves and they wanted to reject their sex and imagine a different future.

Love the way an article says "neuroscience learns what car rental firms knew" ie over age 25 before full development of part of brain curbing impulsive behaviour.

NutellaEllaElla · 17/09/2021 16:14

[quote joolzfromyork]@Awiltu

Why isn't it equally valid to change the mind so that it is congruent with the body?

Well in all fairness, People have tried to do exactly what you would like

We call it 'Conversion Therapy'

Not only does it not work / has never worked ... it has caused enormous damage to individuals over the years - Not just Transsexual People ... Lesbians ... Gay Men ...

Seriously ... do you want to return to that sort of abuse of the individual ?[/quote]
It's usually called puberty. >80% desist after puberty.

scarpa · 17/09/2021 16:15

@sanluca

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it, I would assume they're safe in the appropriate dose

I have some experience with this. Puberty blockers are given to mainly girls when they start puberty before the age of 8. The goal is to get them to around 8-9 years old depending on how old they are when they start showing signs. Pb are given for around a year, year and a half max - because of the often bad side effects.
Then the child is taken off them and puberty continues.

Unlike the treatment for trans children. They start at around 10 and will continue to 16. That is six times longer than normal. Six times!
Then 100% went onto cross sex hormones meaning puberty NEVER continues. The body is tricked into mimicking a process, not actually going through that process. No one is investigating how the end result compares to actual natural puberty.

Also I don't understand how this medical pathway helps children, children who take puberty blockers will see their peers develop in accordance to their natural path. Especially for girl children that are transboys this means they stay childlike whilst boys grow, making the dypshoria in these kids even bigger, it just reenforces they are not male. Transgirls have this less as they will stay small and more average girl length.
Even in medical treatment female humans get the raw deal...

Fair enough - as I said upthread, I understand the concerns about medicalised treatment.

But this wasn't a challenge on the medical safety of treatment, it was on whether the law should be able to overrule a long-standing provision for capacity to consent based on the type of treatment.

Tibtom · 17/09/2021 16:15

Joolz what about Body dymorphia? Would you call CBT for that conversion therapy?

How is changing a homosexual's body to mimic the opposite sex so they can claim to be heterosexual NOT conversion therapy of an extreme kind?

sanluca · 17/09/2021 16:16

Disgusted, you say:

Most trans people are given PBs at around 14.

But that is useless for girls. Puberty is already on its way, boobs grown, periods started, hips widened.

The whole purpose of puberty blockers is to block puberty from making the natural changes on a childs body in accordance to their sex because it doesn't fit their gender idea. That is why pb are given when children are very young, tanner stage 2. Which for girls is 10-12 years old and for boys 12-14. So again female children are worse off in this treatment because they have to stay on blockers a lot longer than boys.

(Waits now for argument female children should be allowed access to cross sex hormones earlier than male children...)

FireFlyBoogaloo · 17/09/2021 16:16

That article is of the oh it's just too complicated, also intersex therefore sex is not binary therefore trans people exist type. Admittedly, it's a particularly moronic one because it strawmans about ladybrains as if that's what we believe in and then debunks that (astonishingly badly btw). After that there's lots of waffle about hormones.

It was worse than that. It stated that there's no such thing as a male brain or a female brain... then went on to state that there were similarities between trans people and other-sex brain (in one small study done in 2005) and therefore gender real.

You couldn't make it up.

HPFA · 17/09/2021 16:18

What we all need to grasp, and the general public most importantly, is that activists don't want children to desist.

Mermaids is putting out podcasts telling children how beautiful and special they are if they are trans. The advice is always affirm, affirm to try and avoid the slightest possibility that the kids might become reconciled to reality. That's what all the "well, you wouldn't want a gay child to desist would you?" is all about.

If you're going to convince everyone that being "trans" is of the same order as being gay, or Black, or having a weirdly sized big toe then you can't have people changing their minds. The possible desisters are sacrifice that is made.

midgemagneto · 17/09/2021 16:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

sanluca · 17/09/2021 16:19

[quote joolzfromyork]@Awiltu

Why isn't it equally valid to change the mind so that it is congruent with the body?

Well in all fairness, People have tried to do exactly what you would like

We call it 'Conversion Therapy'

Not only does it not work / has never worked ... it has caused enormous damage to individuals over the years - Not just Transsexual People ... Lesbians ... Gay Men ...

Seriously ... do you want to return to that sort of abuse of the individual ?[/quote]
In fairness, treating medical health issues from body dysmorphia to anorexia to depression is just that and we don't call that conversion therapy...

FireFlyBoogaloo · 17/09/2021 16:20

*@Awiltu

Why isn't it equally valid to change the mind so that it is congruent with the body?

Well in all fairness, People have tried to do exactly what you would like

We call it 'Conversion Therapy'

Not only does it not work / has never worked ... it has caused enormous damage to individuals over the years - Not just Transsexual People ... Lesbians ... Gay Men ...

Seriously ... do you want to return to that sort of abuse of the individual ?*

What's the treatment for, say, anorexia?

midgemagneto · 17/09/2021 16:24

Handling depression or anorexia is all about fixing the mind

CharlieParley · 17/09/2021 16:24

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it, I would assume they're safe in the appropriate dose, and I make no claim whatsoever to know more than endocrinologists on this. I don't know why you are, to be honest.

Your assumption is wrong scarpa, for two reasons. Number one is that you are assuming that treating precocious puberty and blocking puberty at normal adolescence are the same thing. They are not.

In the case of children diagnosed with precocious puberty, PBs are used to halt abnormal development.

In those patients PBs are typically discontinued at the earliest possible time to allow the child to go through an early, but not precocious puberty. (Around nine years of age or so.)

These children are going through a normal puberty at a normal time for children (precocious puberty is almost always caused by underlying health conditions or as a result of medical treatments for other serious health conditions). And they still suffer horrendous longterm side effects.

In the case of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, PBs are used to halt normal development.

When PBs are discontinued, the child does not proceed with normal development because it a) lags far behind its peers - and we've had various accounts of how damaging that is - and b) the body continues to age throughout the adolescent years even though puberty is halted.

There is enough evidence for instance to show that when brain development is arrested through the use of GnRH analogues (only called PBs when used to halt puberty), the brain is permanently altered (such as a lower IQ and certain brain functions like spatial memory).

Number two is that even in children with precocious puberty, the effects of puberty blockers are life-limiting and seriously harmful. I have written about this at length on other threads, so I'm just reposting this one from the previous thread about this appeal:

I urge you to read up on GnRH analogues (only called puberty blockers when used in pediatric medicine), their history, the deaths they caused, including in children and the downright irresponsible way in which the FDA continues to ignore tens of thousands of reports of serious adverse side effects of the drug. Between 2013 and 2019, that's more than 46,000 including over 6000 deaths in the US alone. The FDA itself on investigating these reports (and other reports concerning different drugs) has publicly stated several times that it estimates that only between 1 and 10% of serious adverse side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the true number of people damaged by GnRH analogues is likely more than ten times larger than the known figures.

Please note what this is: a discussion of the facts of giving puberty blockers to children with precocious puberty or stunted growth. Objections to their use in these children has nothing whatsoever to do with hatred, irrational or otherwise and everything to do with preventing harm coming to children from a medical treatment.

Puberty blockers aren't damaging.

This is an insidious lie. It goes hand in hand with two other insidious lies:

Puberty blockers have been used in children with precocious puberty for decades without problems.

and

The safety of puberty blockers used in children has been very well researched and there are no longterm side effects.

For the truth we have to look to the US, where thousands of women who received the GnRH analogue Lupron to treat precocious puberty or ensure a taller stature are desperately trying to raise awareness of the debilitating, life-limiting longterm side effects of the drug.

By now, most of us here on Mumsnet know about the effect GnRH analogues have on bone health, causing brittle bones which has caused paralysis in cases where the spine was particularly damaged by the drug as well as incontinence. Most of us have heard about the chronic, debilitating pain puberty blockers caused in the young patients and now adult child patients.

What's less known is that GnRH analogues are extremely powerful neural function modulators, also causing debilitating mental health issues, including severe depression, personality disorders, suicidality, anxiety and other mood disorders.

The EU completed a review of mental health issues caused by GnRH-analogues in 2010. Since then warnings about the drugs causing depression and suicides have had to be added to the patient leaflets in the EU.

In the 28 years since licensing the drug, the FDA has carried out several safety reviews of Lupron, acknowledging its dangerous side effects in all patient groups for whom the drug is used, but it is unwilling to withdraw the licence. (If you know anything about how the FDA goes about licensing drugs, you'll know the process is neither transparent nor as thorough as it should be.)

After the company that developed Lupron was forced to enter into evidence all studies it conducted on the efficacy of the drug when used in women with endometriosis, Dr David Redwine analysed the raw data and found that the FDA had only been provided with summaries that misrepresented the findings and omitted data from patients who were adversely affected. When he submitted a 300-page report to the FDA it did not dispute his findings. A year after Dr Redwine's submission it merely published a response saying no regulatory action necessary.

In 2012, a law proposal in New York was tabled to prohibit the prescription of the drug without including a warning on the bottle stating that it could cause death, heart attacks, diabetes and seizures.

Given the immense commercial interests connected to this drug, which makes more than 600 million dollars annually in the US alone, it is almost impossible to get that licence withdrawn. And not just in the US. The 2010 EU report for instance is almost entirely redacted in order to protect those "commercial interests."

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.madamadari.com/endometropolis/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Redwine-Lupron-presentation-Brazil-The-D-is-silent.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjx46SXiIvyAhXkhf0HHYUnC4sQFjAJegQIJRAC&usg=AOvVaw1SqpRS48-bp8-JZgo8FrUE&cshid=1627657618764" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Here is Dr Redwine's analysis of the data btw.

So, yes, puberty blockers are indeed damaging and they have horrific side effects (just to add a few more: causing cancer, gastro-intestinal diseases, heart diseases, lung diseases, fetal malformations, ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome, polycystic ovarian syndrome and so on). And it doesn't matter whether it's Lupron or Triptorelin (branded as Trelstar, Decapeptyl, Gonapeptyl), Goserelin (branded as Zoladex), Histrelin (branded as Vantas, Supprelin), Nafarelin (branded as Synarel) or Buserelin (branded as Suprefact, Suprecor). Lupron is merely the best known because most sold of the lot. All of them have a known adverse event profile. That's because GnRH analogues are bloody dangerous drugs listed as "Hazardous" for HCPs handling them btw, that cause a lot of life-long, debilitating and often disabling side effects.

So much for not damaging and used without problems. Now a quick foray into how well researched their safety is in children. In a development that should surprise no one, they're not well researched at all. Available studies are sparse, subject numbers are usually in the single digits. Studies frequently omit data from child patients with adverse reactions (or as in the case of children who died while receiving Lupton for precocious puberty, the study authors declare no connection between death and drug without providing any supporting evidence for such a declaration).

This is a well known problem in drug trials generally, owed in no small part to the conflict of interest that arises from having the drug company seeking to sell the drug fund and organise its safety trials.

The situation is so dire that in one paper I read recently, one study author researching treatment options for precocious puberty lamented the absolute dearth of reliable studies into the safety of GnRH analogues when used in children.

There is no comprehensive body of research into the safety of these drugs when given to children for precocious puberty or stunted growth. It does not exist in anywhere near the volume that it needs to to prove safety. Everyone assumes it does, because the drug is widely subscribed.

Lots of information about the dangers of Lupron can be found on this website:

lupronvictimshub.com/index.html

Some patient and parent testimonies are here:

www.hormonesmatter.com/lupron-precocious-puberty-parents-patients-speak/

Looking into this horror show of drugs however at least explains why the use of puberty blockers in children diagnosed with gender dysphoria has not been shown to improve mental health outcomes.

Because these drugs cause mental health problems. Several patient and parent accounts in the link above describe children who turned suicidal, some as young as 8, after being put on these drugs for precocious puberty.

We are constantly confronted with the claim that children diagnosed with gender dysphoria must be given puberty blockers because they are so severely depressed, even suicidal that not to do so is hateful and unjustified.

How do you justify giving drugs proven to cause depression and suicidality in child patients to children who are already depressed and suicidal?

midgemagneto · 17/09/2021 16:25

And please don't make out that trans is like gay , innate

It isn't

Which is why the approach is different

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/09/2021 16:28

scarpa

Given that puberty blockers are already used in children experiencing early onset puberty to delay it, I would assume they're safe in the appropriate dose, and I make no claim whatsoever to know more than endocrinologists on this. I don't know why you are, to be honest.

I've gone past assuming the doctors know what they're doing, and into finding out how the now adult cohorts of children prescribed blockers for early-onset puberty temporarily are doing now.

I don't blame you for being unaware of this (I was shocked too) although I do think it's odd that people say "but they're prescribed for precocious puberty" and stop there with their reasoning. Yes, they were! That means we have data on the effects and the next step should be to look at it!

Here's a personal account.

extract
For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

None of it made sense to her until she discovered a community of women online who describe similar symptoms and have one thing in common: All had taken a drug called Lupron.

Thousands of parents chose to inject their daughters with the drug, which was approved to shut down puberty in young girls but also is commonly used off-label to help short kids grow taller.

The drug’s pediatric version comes with few warnings about long-term side effects. It is also used in adults to fight prostate cancer or relieve uterine pain and the Food and Drug Administration has warnings on the drug’s adult labels about a variety of side effects.

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings, and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25-year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26-year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Okla. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

In the interviews with women who took Lupron to delay puberty or grow taller, most described depression and anxiety. Several recounted their struggles, or a daughter’s, with suicidal urges. One mother of a Lupron patient described seizures.

Continues here: www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

And now, here is a website with contributions from various different former patients. You can also ask those who were prescribed this class of drugs as an adult to treat gynaecologist issues, who have reported the side-effects are horrendous.

www.lupronvictimshub.com/

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/09/2021 16:29

Holy cross-post, Batman! Sorry, Charlie.

Passmeamenuatthetottenham · 17/09/2021 16:35

I just cannot understand how anyone thinks its a good idea to mess with puberty in this way?

Think about when a woman goes through early menopause, or even menopause at the right age. The lack of oestrogen in the body causes all sorts of issues, from osteoporosis (which is why women who go through early menopause or have cancer treatment which causes it have to have bone density injections), it causes brain issues, problems sleeping, problems with weight, they now even think it could be linked with dementia!

And these people are advocating for girls who have barely even started puberty to block their bodies from producing oestrogen and instead replace it with a hormone not meant for their biological body? Meaning they will never produce oestrogen properly?

And these are girls who would have otherwise had a completely normal and healthy puberty with the correct amounts of hormones for their bodies to function properly? They will become lifelong medical patients with potentially a lifetime of health problems ahead of them.

I just do not get it. Its so fucked up.

CharlieParley · 17/09/2021 16:35

The more, the merrier PurgatoryOfPotholes.

The more I read up on this, the more hortified I am that this has been allowed. There will be a wave of lawsuits brought by these children and unfortunately for health care practitioners in the UK, there is no American-style "informed consent" model in use here to protect them. I just wish we could stop the damage now and not in a few years after more of these children have been damaged.

CharlieParley · 17/09/2021 16:36

horrified I don't even know what hortified means.

Passmeamenuatthetottenham · 17/09/2021 16:37

@PurgatoryOfPotholes thank you for posting that account. Some people seriously need to engage their brains on this topic.

RedDogsBeg · 17/09/2021 16:41

@CharlieParley

The more, the merrier PurgatoryOfPotholes.

The more I read up on this, the more hortified I am that this has been allowed. There will be a wave of lawsuits brought by these children and unfortunately for health care practitioners in the UK, there is no American-style "informed consent" model in use here to protect them. I just wish we could stop the damage now and not in a few years after more of these children have been damaged.

The phrase like lambs to the slaughter comes to mind.
Signalbox · 17/09/2021 16:41

I suppose the only thing that will actually stop this medical malpractice will be when young women start suing the NHS for treating them without informed consent after they realise how their loss of sexual function and loss of fertility actually impacts upon their lives. It honestly can't come soon enough.

MrsKeats · 17/09/2021 16:42

Yes like my stepchild :((

StellaAndCrow · 17/09/2021 16:43

@CharlieParley

I just want to repost what nauticant said upthread:

Like others, I think the appeal with be successful and the decision of the lower court (the High Court) will be overturned. I think the basis for the overturning will be that the case was a judicial review and the lower court got drawn into thinking about right and wrong when they should have been considering whether the practice of the Tavistock was legal.

If I've guessed correctly, and I hope I haven't, there'll be huge celebrations by trans activists, Maugham will be intolerable, but after the party when they see where things stand, and when their demands for things to return to how they were end up being ignored, they'll realise that this wasn't about what a court decided but was about professionals being reminded of their responsibilities, in the context of growing public awareness, and exposure to sunlight. This genie won't be fitting back neatly into the bottle.

I agree with this assessment. We have long come to realise that our preference for judicial reviews (that seek to right a wrong for everyone, without seeking to penalise individuals) was probably misguided, even if we had some success with them.

This is the second judgement that clearly acknowledged harm may be done by these policies and that the right way to address these harms is to sue for damages.

This will, in the end, also lead to policies being changed, but it is a very different and in many ways much more difficult to endure for the individuals in question as they will then also be accused of doing it purely for personal, financial gain.

The Tavistock will not in my view go on to happily sail into the sunset. The High Court judgement was a shot across their bows, and the NICE review of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones has holed them under the waterline.

The ship is sinking. Who goes down with it will now depend on the lawsuits to come, but what was uncovered thanks to Keira Bell and Mrs A cannot ever be hidden away again.

Yes, and I'm interested to see how the endocrinologists respond, as GIDS have been passing the buck and saying that they (GIDS) don't make the final decision about hormones, endocrinologists do. If I were an endocrinologist I'd be very uncomfortable with this idea. I think endocrinology will have been working on the principle that GIDS assessed the need and appropriateness of hormones, and endocrinology are prescribing and monitoring doses. I wonder how keen they'll be to continue now GIDS are saying that endocrinology make the final decision?
Youarethecurry · 17/09/2021 16:46

@Passmeamenuatthetottenham, I can't quite get my head round it either. Since when did puberty become optional? Who is going to answer to all these girls who have suspended their adult development and/or are swamping their bodies with testosterone, when they are women in their thirties and forties? Not today's doctors. They will be living on their pensions. I am utterly ashamed of the NHS today. 'First do no harm'? Jesus Christ.