The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

[MaudTheInvincible]

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

I see the gloaters have arrived.

It is a shame the gloating fraction are so close minded. No one is asking for transgender children not to get treatment, but that experimental drugs is not the first port of call. But this message is not acceptable to them as the gloaters cannot pathom anyone thinking differently about this complicated topic.

And wow, the trust placed in doctors not to get caught up in political lobbying. Very naive at best. Wonder if Keira is brave enough to sue for damages.

Can somebody please explain to me why grown men are perfectly able to keep their dicks intact and we are supposed to view them as women, just because they say so - but young people (girls mostly) are being rushed into hormones and surgery as fast as possible because it's apparently the only way to resolve their distress.

I could, but it'd get deleted.

and will be needed before the night out, my fellow MNers. I predict an influx of new posters coming to gloat over their perceived win.

I wonder to what extent individuals' online history will be taken into account in future court cases? Their membership of online communities and conversation threads had within them, the age-appropriateness of the conversations, older people coaching children into the words to use when seeing a GP and so on. This week we had the well-I-never findings about the impact of Instagram on the mental health of teenage girls which did make me wonder about the possibility of tobacco or asbestos style class actions against various social media platforms down the line.

@EishetChayil

Mark my words - there will be moves to lower the age of consent riding on the coat tails of this. A child can consent to go on cross-sex hormones? Then they can consent to sex.

Whenever safeguards are let down, the PIE/MAP faction swarms in.

Children have been able to consent to taking hormonal contraception since Gillick was introduced, many of which can have long-term effects. Nobody has attempted to lower the age of consent as a result.

Genuinely don't give a shit about gloating.

It's the inability to answer questions pointing out apparent glaring contradictions that stands out.
(sex and gender are separate concepts and you may be given different ones! Yet they can also in some way be 'congruent' and completely match)

Over and over and over.
Refusal to engage with what's asked, what's said.

@MonsignorMirth

Can I genuinely ask the two posters celebrating and urging faster treatment what gender has to do with physical bodies? If gender is innate and entirely separate from sex, why does anyone need to change their body? I really struggle with this. The way people insist a trans person's body must be changed from 'male-looking' to 'female-looking' or vice versa implies there is something to do with biological sex that overlaps with gender. But what and how? How can people also claim that these are separate and different ones handed out at birth?

That’s a fair question and id say that not everyone who is transgender will want to change their bodies and of course that’s ok!

These are highly personal and individual decisions. To answer your question, Gender identity is different from gender expression. How we present ourselves to the world is totally down to an individual.

A child should never be allowed to do something irreversible and before you come to me saying puberty blockers aren’t reversible or have negative effects, a voice breaking, or puberty happening is much more irreversible.

Because the argument for contraception was about practical issues and protecting children from the greater harm perhaps

Can somebody please explain to me why grown men are perfectly able to keep their dicks intact and we are supposed to view them as women, just because they say so - but young people (girls mostly) are being rushed into hormones and surgery as fast as possible because it's apparently the only way to resolve their distress.

Well.

As mentioned on Twitter: it's not a bloody football match.

There isn't a 'win' and your team gets to get pissed tonight, yay. These are very serious issues which are not going away. The judgement has very clearly passed the buck directly to the clinicians.

In the case of this apparently fine system which failed Keira, who is living proof that it's not all beautifully reversible and consequence free, and young adults DO need deeper investigation and less invasive, permanent treatment options, and that a yes at the time is not always a permanent yes...

the answer is 'go sue your clinician'.

Ok. Form an orderly queue.

Death is a natural and irreversible consequence of life so perhaps we should stop having children to avoid these consequences?

Non Binary are the true trans people that are pushing gender norms

What a joke. Declaring they're "non-binary" as if the rest of us were walking stereotypes is not fighting gender norms.

I wonder how the clinicians are feeling about this judgement? Is this loading rather a lot of responsibility onto their shoulders?

I can only hope there's a lot more light on this than when Kiera was guided on to a medical path and so fewer young girls and boys will be permanently altered before they can really know what the implications are for lifelong sterility and loss of sexual function.

Not all sadly but Keira will have given many pause. Brave brave woman

Eventually the harms caused by injecting unnecessary testosterone into a female body will become apparent but there will be a lot of damage done by then.

My friend in Germany who transitioned (ftm) about 10 years ago was told to have a hysterectomy and double mastectomy because of the increased cancer risk due to taking testosterone. It's bonkers that trained doctors seem to simply ignore that.

To celebrate the right for children to seriously damage their bodies, with little understanding of what will lie ahead, is grotesque.

This bears repeating. I find myself pondering why certain adults are so very desperate for children to not go through puberty.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

To celebrate the right for children to seriously damage their bodies, with little understanding of what will lie ahead, is grotesque.

This bears repeating. I find myself pondering why certain adults are so very desperate for children to not go through puberty.

And to remain intact themselves.

We all know.

The lawyers will smell blood. I would not want to be any of those endocrinologists who have been signing off the prescriptions.

@Igneococcus

Eventually the harms caused by injecting unnecessary testosterone into a female body will become apparent but there will be a lot of damage done by then.

My friend in Germany who transitioned (ftm) about 10 years ago was told to have a hysterectomy and double mastectomy because of the increased cancer risk due to taking testosterone. It's bonkers that trained doctors seem to simply ignore that.

Weird when testosterone is a therapeutic treatment for breast cancer.... or maybe total BS.

So I am right to assume that following this result there will now be a vigorous and clear public debate on what actually constitutes properly obtained consent in this matter? Will the doctors, who will be so very alive to various possibilities, be explaining what principles they adhere to in this?

Unfortunately this is too late to reverse the attacks in Gillick competence for other services. Its a job well done by the Christian right who always had abortion and birth control in their sights

@doesanybodywantanytoast

The lawyers will smell blood. I would not want to be any of those endocrinologists who have been signing off the prescriptions.

There'll be adverts on Facebook by all the no-win-no-fee guys. Insurance premiums will skyrocket.

I can't see medics flooding to work at the Tavi if they're at massive risk of being sued.

Eventually the harms caused by injecting unnecessary testosterone into a female body will become apparent but there will be a lot of damage done by then.

Experimenting with the use of cross sex hormones on adults is grim, on children it's unforgivable. No one knows the long term impacts.

@DisgustedofManchester

Unfortunately this is too late to reverse the attacks in Gillick competence for other services. Its a job well done by the Christian right who always had abortion and birth control in their sights

Too late for what? Which judgments are you referring to?

@sanluca

I see the gloaters have arrived.

It is a shame the gloating fraction are so close minded. No one is asking for transgender children not to get treatment, but that experimental drugs is not the first port of call. But this message is not acceptable to them as the gloaters cannot pathom anyone thinking differently about this complicated topic.

And wow, the trust placed in doctors not to get caught up in political lobbying. Very naive at best. Wonder if Keira is brave enough to sue for damages.

I have sympathy with that point of view, but this ruling wasn't about whether puberty blockers should be a 'first port of call'.

Tis ruling was about whether said children could consent to this 'experimental' treatment if that's what they wanted. Not the methods of treatment for transgender children - in fact, this ruling makes it clear that making medical decisions on treatment pathways is for doctors, not lawyers.

It has been ruled that, like with other forms of medical treatment (many of which have long-standing side effects, such as contraception), children who can display a certain level of competence should be allowed to make that decision for themselves.

I can't imagine celebrating the upholding of a ruling that either paves the way for Gillick competence to be overturned altogether (stopping young people being able to access contraception safely should they need to against their parents' wishes) or for transgender children to be singled out as somehow less capable than other children of being able to make medical decisions for themselves.

I can to an extent understand the concerns about children accessing drug-based treatment and I would hope this ruling will make doctors involved in trans children's care be very thorough when assessing competence and planning treatment paths.