The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

[MaudTheInvincible]

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

Yay! Some men said what we women said, so now it's OK to believe us! But probably not to acknowledge our input. Woo hoo!

Or was that women said the opposite of what we said, so now something something something.

Nope. Impenetrable. Even after you work out who is who!

Oh, and I don't believe you anyway. I know no transman who speaks of his incipient puberty in those terms. I know quite a few transwomen who do....

We'll do whatever the fck we want with our breasts and wombs, and arguments about trying to control how we interact with our own bodies are not any better because they're coming from women*

When you are an adult yes, crack on, your responsibility.

ButterflyHatched I have posted several times on this thread that puberty blockers cause severe depression and suicidality in the EU. This is not an unevidenced claim, this is why PBs now come with patient leaflets warning of depression. I've attached screenshots of one patient leaflet used in the UK. It accompanies a product containing Triptorelin, the only PB officially licenced for this use in the UK (although doctors also use various others).

Listed first under Warnings and precautions for use in children it states:

There have been reports of depression in patients taking Decapeptyl SR 11.25 mg which may be severe.

If you are taking Decapeptyl SR 11.25 mg and develop depressed mood, inform your doctor.

All leaflets for PBs contain this type of warning.

Here is the drug information on Triptorelin used in children from NICE, the UK medicines regulator: bnfc.nice.org.uk/drug/triptorelin.html

Under Side Effects, it lists only "depression; mood altered" as common or very common (common means it affects 1 in 10 patients, very common means it affects more than 1 in 10).

This argument that you must give PBs because the children are depressed and might otherwise attempt suicide is irresponsible when the prescribed solution can lead to severe depression.

Yes, your mates think PBs would have been great for them. I don't doubt it. But the personal feelings of potential or past patients do not matter when it comes to patient safety.

Correction to the above: PBs don't just cause severe depression and suicidality in the EU! I meant to add "in the EU" to the next sentence, about warnings added to patient leaflets in the EU.

So you are conveying adult female’s views on whether they would have used puberty blockers or not. And they transitioned in the past, what 5 years ago and are representative of the current cohort of teenage females? Yes?

They too had five friends out of the seven of them in one group in one form declare themselves as trans and get referred one by one over six months. And they are very confident that their four friends were all trans just like them and getting the best care and weren’t influencing and encouraging each other? When not one of them had expressed any gender dysphoria 12 months ago. But they all know what to say at their appointments. They are in it together.

Did your mates receive the best standard of psychotherapy and assessment for comorbidities and have all negative side effects detailed for them? Because their clinic had plenty of resources and gave them whatever access they needed.

Some more on Lupron.

The FDA currently has over 25,000 adverse event reports for Lupron products including more than 1500 deaths. Reactions include suicidal thoughts, stroke, muscle atrophy and debilitating bone and joint pain.

That is just the ones reported. Many, many would not have reported effects. They didn’t know why their teeth were falling out for instance.

And yes… suicidal thoughts and depression is also known effects. So, improving mental health… I doubt that. Particularly when so many of the teenagers I know who are female trans people have appalling mental health to start with.

It is often very easy to discount the negative effects if you either don’t believe it will affect you or you have the safety to know they never will affect you. And in doing so, you then consign young female teenagers to experience them instead.

[quote ButterflyHatched]**@Helleofabore: It is the continued grouping of the adolescent male and female transitioners as one homogeneous group that is the problem. You are well aware that our concerns are more for the young female adolescent transitioners although it is concerning for young males too. I'm sympathetic to this argument - more sympathetic than I should be, it turns out, as I've just discussed this point with trans guys of my acquaintance and their responses were...well I feel enlightened.

So your argument hinges on the continuing affirming only treatments for all transitioners (you qualify this as for those who need them), when clinicians are saying it is causing harm amongst that female group (the dominant group). That historic protocols and pressure on resources are allowing patients for whom hormonal treatment is not the best option for them.
I think we want to continually review historical protocols and take a careful look at social factors when it comes to diagnostic criteria. But see below.

@FlyingOink: And there appears to be little point in using them in girls, aside from the prevention of menses, because they just make the girl shorter. Plus girls' bone density suffers more and recovers less. So really there's not much to recommend them in boys and nothing to recommend them in girls. Your statement re: their use in male-assigned individuals denies the reality of many, many many lived experiences. For female-assigned, see below.

So it was asked for earlier:

Having done a quick check of my various adolescent-transitioning trans guy mates, their incisive takes on the whole 'female-assigned patients should be treated differently' argument are:

"Not having access to blockers when my puberty hit caused me massive problems with depression."

"This is massively underestimating the trauma of going through puberty as an AFAB person whose gender identity isn't female - and sure, part of that is society sexualising teenagers who're read as female, but there's a whole lot of physical stuff going on there too."

"I would abso-bloody-lutely have gone for puberty blockers if I'd been able to - a chunk of the reason I was suicidally dysphoric was the sudden onset of menstruation/breast-growth/hips-widening which smacked straight into my brain going 'this is a one-way thing and there is no way to reverse it'"

"I get very pissed off by it (this argument), honestly. Blockers earlier would have made my life so much nicer!"

"We'll do whatever the fck we want with our breasts and wombs, and arguments about trying to control how we interact with our own bodies are not* any better because they're coming from women."[/quote]
OK so person one didn't have them. Person two is just angry. Person three didn't have them either. Person four didn't have them. Person five missed the point.
What was this supposed to demonstrate?

What was this supposed to demonstrate?

I suspect it was that Butterfly has at least 5 female transitioner friends. And that without us knowing what depth of knowledge they have on the negative side effects for females of the drugs used as puberty blockers, we are supposed to accept that these transitioners would accept the side effects.

Of course, to stop the body changing the pelvis would require years of puberty blockers (and we know from precocious puberty treatments what has happened 10-20 years on for those girls). To suspend menstruation, well, contraception may help although I wouldn’t be happy for my 14+ year old to take those for the side effects either but may be a better option.

There seems to be this constant handwave minimising of the depression and anxiety in females from puberty blockers. And it seems that the slamming of bringing on menopause to a adolescent body is completely ignored. And menopause has had a huge burden on my mental health, including lack of sleep. I cannot imagine a brain that is still requiring a huge amount of sleep developing as it should.

But yes. Maybe we should post five statements from females who actually DID have puberty blockers and then Testosterone in their teenage years. And then detransitioned because GIDS did not provide them with what they needed, extensive psychotherapy BEFORE referring them to endocrinology.

But yes. Maybe we should post five statements from females who actually DID have puberty blockers and then Testosterone in their teenage years. And then detransitioned because GIDS did not provide them with what they needed, extensive psychotherapy BEFORE referring them to endocrinology.

Like Keira Bell?

Or Ellie and Nele?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51806011

Maybe more information on the sexed based differences on transition/detransition, apologies if this has been posted before

segm.org/first_large_study_of_detransitioners

And, in case you can't be bothered to open the link...

Just look at the reasons given... take a good look... wonder what might have prevented the arduous changes these mainly young wmen experienced? Oh, yes! Sex based differentiation and diagnosis, more talking...

It’s this sort of bonkers logic that has led us to this scandal.

You can’t apply adult consent to theoretical ideas about how your life might have turned out differently and mentally go back and prospectively consent your child self. Just because you understand it now doesn’t mean you would have understood it then. You have to actually reach adulthood to fully understand the whole concept, because it involves adult themes.

And this has led to the scandal because adults have said to other kids, (not their younger selves in their imagination) and to their doctors “don’t do what I did, life sucks”. And these doctors, the best alternative they could come up with is the medical affirmation pathway which also doesn’t help.

So now we have an older cohort who aren’t happy because they wish they were the younger cohort, and a younger cohort, who aren’t happy because the pathway hasn’t fixed them either, with the added complication of bodies suffering from a myriad of iatrogenic complications.

Why aren’t trans healthcare advocates battling for good prospective comparative studies of therapy for children with adult-aged consent for medical treatments, to help prevent the next cohort suffering also?

“Trans healthcare now!” is literally impatient. It means “we will take anything you’ve got even though there’s no evidence for it and we aren’t prepared to wait or put in the effort to find out what really helps people.”

Nothing will ever change or improve, it will be just one generation after another of the same old bad medicine.

FlyingOink

Like Keira definitely. But of course, everyday there are new voices being added. Sinead, Ben are others who have been speaking out for a long time too. There seem to be many now discussing this who are from the US (like Willow and Grace).

I think it would be all to easy to flood this thread with their experiences. Many who had puberty blockers too. And all of them have discussed with some depth their journeys which have relevance to this particular cohort we are discussing.

I believe Butterfly’s accounts, however we know absolutely nothing about those female transitioners and their journeys and how relevant they are to the current teenagers.

It’s the usual: my mates are [insert] and therefore I will never believe [insert] and you shouldn’t either. You should be ashamed of your hateful stance because my mate is nothing like your description despite the evidence that others are.

arguments about trying to control how we interact with our own bodies are not any better because they're coming from women

It's not just them interacting though, that's the whole point.

They expect surgeons and endocrinologists to interact with their bodies on a consumer choice basis paid for by public health services.

This is the point of the arguments they dislike. The rebuttals are always about it being a consumer choice.

Those arguments are not any better because they are coming from trans guys.

And it’s not arguing with them about how to control their bodies. It’s about consent, and how doctors interact with the bodies of children.

I could not give two fucks rubbed together what Butterfly’s adult friends do with their bodies, but I do care enormously what doctors do to the bodies of children who cannot consent.

I could not give two fucks rubbed together what Butterfly’s adult friends do with their bodies, but I do care enormously what doctors do to the bodies of children who cannot consent.

This. Always this.

I realise there are more immediately relevant discussions going on but I just wanted to respond to this:

@OldCrone
When you talk about people being trans, what exactly do you mean? There are many definitions and I'd like to know which one you are using in your posts. You're obviously not using the all-encompassing Stonewall trans umbrella definition, since you exclude cross-dressers. What is your definition of 'trans'?

Ultimately it’s anyone who tells me they consider themselves to be trans, unless there are obvious reasons to consider they are not genuine/doing so in bad faith. To be honest even if I think they might not be genuine I would still probably use the name and pronouns they asked me to use - it’s safer than taking it on myself to be the arbiter of who’s “really” trans and who isn’t. Although obviously my internal perception of them and instinctive sense of their gender will vary depending on how they present.

unless there are obvious reasons to consider they are not genuine/doing so in bad faith. Can you see into their souls?

Cos all you said was, anyone who says they are unless I don't think that's right, based on how they look; and I'd be too polite to mention it anyway!

Although obviously my internal perception of them and instinctive sense of their gender will vary depending on how they present.

Which is, in itself, quite transphobic of you!

I refer you to Danielle Muscato, amongst others.

Ultimately it’s anyone who tells me they consider themselves to be trans, unless there are obvious reasons to consider they are not genuine/doing so in bad faith. To be honest even if I think they might not be genuine I would still probably use the name and pronouns they asked me to use - it’s safer than taking it on myself to be the arbiter of who’s “really” trans and who isn’t.

This doesn't answer my question about what you think 'being trans' means. What do you think these people are saying about themselves that you believe? What does 'being trans' mean to you?

@OldCrone
This doesn't answer my question about what you think 'being trans' means. What do you think these people are saying about themselves that you believe? What does 'being trans' mean to you?

I think it means they experience discomfort with or a sense of ‘wrongness’ about one or more of-

• the labels/social categories (man/woman/boy/girl) and associated pronouns that usually attach to people with the biological sexual characteristics they were born with;
• the primary or secondary sexual characteristics of their bodies;
• the gendered expectations or stereotypes that often attach to the label/social category they are expected to inhabit as a result of their biological sexual characteristics;

And, as a result of that feeling of discomfort or wrongness, they consider themselves to be trans (including non-binary).

I think it means they experience discomfort with or a sense of ‘wrongness’ about one or more of-
- the labels/social categories (man/woman/boy/girl) and associated pronouns that usually attach to people with the biological sexual characteristics they were born with;
social categories associated with men and women? can you expand on this?

- the primary or secondary sexual characteristics of their bodies;
and your solution to children suffering in this way is to give them drugs with a known side effect of suicidal ideation and to encourage them to want to have healthy body parts removed?

- the gendered expectations or stereotypes that often attach to the label/social category they are expected to inhabit as a result of their biological sexual characteristics;
and your solution to this isn't to change the stereotypes, but to change the children? yikes

blimey

So, they are GC people who took a right turn at the last moment?

I am a GC woman

• I often experience discomfort with or a sense of ‘wrongness’ about one or more of the societal mores surrounding male/female roles
• I don't undertsand what the primary or secondary sexual characteristics of bodies have to do with being mor or less valued in society. I can see it affects how your clothes hang!
• I hate, rail against, have marched, shouted, stickered against the gendered expectations or stereotypes that society clings to

As a consequence I am a gender critical individual. I fight against those stereotypes. I do not embrace them, live by them and insist that they are the be all and end all of humanity!

To be clear, I’m not saying that an individual is trans just because they experience one or more of the three things listed - a person can obviously be uncomfortable with gender stereotypes and not identify as trans. At one end of the scale you could have a person born with female biological sex characteristics who doesn’t have any discomfort about their body, but rejects gender stereotypes and dresses and styles themselves in a way that is considered by others to be masculine. They might just consider themselves to be a gender-non-conforming woman, or they might identify as a non-binary person, or a trans man. People are entitled to find a way to relate to the gendered nature of our society in whatever way feels most comfortable to them.

At the other end of the scale you could have a person born with female sex characteristics who has a deep sense of discomfort about their body and chooses to undergo medical interventions such as taking testosterone, having a mastectomy and hysterectomy, and adopts a name and pronouns generally associated with men. It seems very likely such a person would identify as a trans man (or a man with a trans history), but if they identified as a woman, I would be interested to understand what that meant to them (in the same way as I am interested to understand what it means to a person who identifies as eg a trans man but who has female biological sex characteristics and uses a female name and pronouns, and dresses and presents in line with gender expectations of women). It doesn’t immediately make sense to me, but it’s not really for me to judge.