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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

999 replies

MaudTheInvincible · 16/09/2021 19:19

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
CinnamonMagic · 01/10/2021 09:13

" I think many people are very attached to their labels. "

Yes. Even fairly nonsensical ones like gender non-conforming - which falsely assume the rest of us are gender conforming or binary or whatever. But very few women or men completely conform to gender stereotypes. We're all human, and I think breaking down those rigid stereotypes so we can be ourselves is something feminists have been working towards for years.

Labels can often be part of trying to understand and assert ourselves, but they simplify other people too much. At some point you realise other people are just as complex.

And sometimes we are more complex than our own labels allow. I just assumed as a teenager that I was heterosexual and I married young before I really had an opportunity to challenge that heteronormative assumption. Now I realise I am also same sex attracted.

When you are a female who doesn't wear feminine clothing, shoes, make-up, hand-bags, and has a mixture of hobbies and interests but you realise how much your life has been shaped by your female body and why we need feminism, it is bemusing to see people who primarily see women through stereotypes and performing feminity seeming to think they know what it is to feel like a woman.

Of course listening to the lived experience of Transwomen can help us understand where they are coming from. But considering what Transwomen are trying to do, there seems a complete lack of curiosity about the lived experience of girls and women beyond superficial stereotypes.

Helleofabore · 01/10/2021 09:28

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

A significant portion of society is in the process of renegotiating those expectations to try and make life better for people who don’t fit the entrenched moulds - whether as a gender-non-confirming person, or as a trans person.

This is bollocks.

We are now at the point where it is considered "cool" and "progressive" to assume a short-haired girl who visibly doesn't care about her appearance any more than a stereotypical boy would be expected to, either identifies as a boy or as non-binary.

Do you know what the short word for this is? Offensive.

I am sick to death of people reifying sex role stereotypes and patting themselves on the back for it. How dare you parasite off gender non-conforming people and lump them in with people who deliberately live by sex-role stereotypes- just of the opposite sex?

Sick to death! I've known a lot of people who objected to girls wearing boys' clothes - and you know what? None of them were feminists. In fact, they have become trans activists, because it fits in with their view that liking pink is an innate quality girls should have, and that there is something wrong with girls who don't!

Well, I don't like pink, I don't particularly conform, and I am happy that I have full sexual function, the capacity for sexual pleasure, and full fertility so that I get to choose whether or not to have children. I know I could have been easily convinced that there was something wrong with me for not fitting in, and I could have asked to change myself to fit in; to go on puberty blockers, to the detriment of my future health.

I've seen people ask what stake I can possibly have in this debate. Well, of course I do! It is called compassion, altruism, and sisterhood with angry teenage girls today. I would like other girls of this generation to have the same options in adult life. A 40% chance of having a vaginal prolapse post elective hysterectomy looks a tad shite to me. www.oxfordgynaecology.com/conditions-we-treat/vaginal-prolapse/post-hysterectomy-vault-prolapse/

Then there's the brittle bones from the puberty blockers. www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

I find it hard to believe that a treatment that has been in use for this length of time is so clearly the wrong choice for the majority of people being prescribed it.

Do you find it so hard? It's simple enough. Look inside yourself. What did you get out of hurried copy-and-pasting a google result you haven't read, that didn't address the outcomes for the demographic of patients today? You knew what side you wanted to be on, and you hopefully looked for the information that supported that. Then in this very thread, someone else seized on it, because they thought it said what they wanted to hear. They gave you positive feedback for submitting it. Around and around it goes, until to openly disagree becomes akin to choosing to martyr oneself out of principle. Few people are that brave.

extract

I think it is a problem that GIDS clinicians are making decisions that will have a major impact on children and young people’s bodies and on their lives, potentially the rest of their lives, without a robust evidence base. GIDS clinicians tell children and families that puberty blockers/hormone blocks are “fully reversible” but the reality is no one knows what the impacts are on children’s brains so how is it possible to make this claim? It is also a problem that GIDS clinicians are afraid of raising their concerns for fear of being labelled transphobic by colleagues. [bold mine]

I worked at the Leeds GIDS clinic as a Band 7 Clinical Psychologist between October 2017 and October 2018. Shortly after starting at GIDS I was in a meeting with three other GIDS clinicians. I said that it was curious to me that there had been so little discussion on gender identity in the field of psychology. In all my years of studying and working in psychology (including the Doctorate in Clinical Psychology) there had been very little mention of gender identity.

I also spoke about how it was interesting to me that I had been a Research Assistant on a Medical Research Council funded longitudinal research study on child development (Wirral Child Health and Development Study) that had commenced in 2007 and that gender identity had not been part of the investigation. I said that it feels as though the gender identity issue has come out of the blue. This attempt to try to explore the context resulted in my questions being described as “transphobic” by one of my colleagues, X.

Several weeks later when X and I had a joint meeting with senior staff X claimed that in the above meeting I had said that transgenderism was a trait of personality disorder. I had said nothing of the sort. I have never thought transgenderism is a kind of personality disorder and would never have said this.

The above meeting was called in response to a disagreement that I had with X over the two cases that we had seen together. As this is an open letter I cannot go into the details of my disagreements with X over these cases but in both cases I felt that X was too quick to recommend the medical pathway and I did not believe there was a current clinical need for puberty blockers in either case.

It was also surreal at the time to be arguing with X that a child’s early interest in [a certain children’s toy] should have no bearing on whether they are diagnosed with gender dysphoria. [bold mine]

In the same meetings with senior staff I also raised the issue of the aforementioned incident where X called me transphobic and another incident where she called me transphobic. The second incident was during a meeting of several clinicians where we were discussing a case of two young transmen who said that they were planning to [embark on something that, at the very least, would have serious health risks]. I had said that I believed that this needed to go to social care due to the risks involved and I believe that X called me transphobic for saying this. [bold mine]

In the meeting with senior staff X denied calling me transphobic and said that she had directed this allegation to colleague Y because she thought that that Y had said that any transpeople [embarking on xxxx] should be reported to social care. I do not remember Y saying this at all. As as far as I’m aware there were no repercussions for X calling either myself or Y transphobic when neither of us was being transphobic.

Continues: medium.com/@kirstyentwistle/an-open-letter-to-dr-polly-carmichael-from-a-former-gids-clinician-53c541276b8d

Since then, the Safeguarding Lead at the Tavi has successfully sued them for not letting her do her job of safeguarding children.

I am just posting this again from purgatory.

Helen, this is another clinician who in 2018 was reporting their discomfort in prescribing puberty blockers.

What changes have happened since then? A review that showed nothing really because they couldn’t even produce it at the time to support themselves in Kiera’s case. But miraculously published immediately after.

I know I am repeating myself by now, but at what point will you accept that their is systemic and procedural issues in the UK NHS gender clinics. And a culture of coercive affirmation because to speak up is to either be called hateful and transphobic, lose your job or have significant interference (Sonia Appleby) so you cannot work effectively.

Where will you accept that a poorly run resource is no longer capable of making fully independent decisions and policies that benefit a group that they cannot even describe because their record keeping is fundamentally flawed?

And how very, very strange though that other countries have clinicians reporting similar coercive work environments…

Is there a studious determination to ignore it all?

Helleofabore · 01/10/2021 09:30

Of course listening to the lived experience of Transwomen can help us understand where they are coming from. But considering what Transwomen are trying to do, there seems a complete lack of curiosity about the lived experience of girls and women beyond superficial stereotypes.

Thank you cinnamonmagic.

OldCrone · 01/10/2021 09:54

I’m not sure if you’re suggesting a causal link between the increase in trans people and the regression in terms of acceptance of gender non-conformity, and if so, in which direction?

They seem to me to feed off each other. Children are being taught that they should have a 'gender identity', so girls think that if they don't conform to stereotypes that they are trans or non-binary, so the number of trans people increases and girls/women identifying as trans are more visible, so younger girls who see this think that if they don't conform to stereotypes...

I suspect that different trans people probably frame what they are asking others to see them as in a variety of ways. That aside, it isn’t my impression that in most cases a person makes a simple conscious choice as the whether to be trans or gender non-conforming, on the basis of a calculation of which is easier or more likely to be accepted by others.

That wasn't what I meant. Not at an individual level, anyway. I've lost count of the number of discussions I've had on here with people who have asserted that changing society to accept gender non-conformity is too difficult and it's much better for people to 'transition' so that they fit in with what they believe is expected by a society which doesn't accept gender non-conformity. I've always assumed such people to be very young and/or to have no knowledge or understanding of history. Or possibly that they have another agenda altogether.

The idea that societal expectations can't be changed is absurd when you think the changes which have come about in the last century or so. Women didn't get the right to vote, wear trousers, work after marriage etc by saying they were men, they got this by challenging what society thought was acceptable for women.

InvisibleDragon · 01/10/2021 10:49

Thanks for some fantastic posts and links Helleofabore and purgatory.

I had not seen Michael Biggs' analysis of bone density before and I am horrified. Here it is again, because the link was a few pages back:
www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/jpem-2021-0180/html

A loss in spine bone mineral density of more than 1 standard deviation is absolutely huge, particularly as the cohort already started with lower than average density. That was also after only 2 years' follow-up. I dread to think what happens to kids who are prescribed blockers for longer.

I also note that his analysis is not separated by sex. This is probably because the sample size is already small. But it does make me wonder whether the impact is larger for natal girls.

I'm also wondering - what is the rationale at the Tavistock and other clinics for not prescribing hormones at puberty and waiting until age 16? Was this the blockers are reversible, hormones are not argument? Because if I were Keira's lawyers, I would be poking at that with a very big stick: if the Tavistock agrees that children can't consent to hormones and that parents can't consent on their behalf, how on earth can 12 year olds (or their parents) consent to blockers, which are doing similar levels of permanent damage?

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow
PaleGreenGhost · 01/10/2021 11:10

I’m not sure if you’re suggesting a causal link between the increase in trans people and the regression in terms of acceptance of gender non-conformity, and if so, in which direction?

This is definitely a thing. I'm a mother of young children and have worked various school based roles for much longer. Primary school kids are much more "pink box" or "blue box" than they were when I started work. If you don't fit those boxes, if you're a bit vulnerable - neuro diverse or you're struggling with friendships or with something at home, and then your whole school gets a presentation on shiny gender IDs... Well it's obvious, isn't it? How else do you shout help? Especially x100 if you're a girl, embarking on puberty, who sees the porn soaked, labour intensive beauty regimed role models and finds them terrifying? And then if you've been sexually assaulted too... Well you're going to want to believe the ideology that tells you this isn't your authentic self, aren't you?

Helleofabore · 01/10/2021 11:18

I hope this link works (the web site is legit in case you get a message).

This pdf shows that the female’s, and those wishing to support them, in sports are being coerced to remain silent if they wish to continue to play or to remain in their roles.

equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Project%20Report%20on%20the%20Review%20of%20the%20Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf

I post it as very recent and real example of how this is being paralleled in gender clinics and other practitioners.

In sports, there is a safety issue at stake. If anyone is in doubt look up the Swansea uni’s research into female brains in rugby, the prevalence for dementia in rugby in general, and the English rugby decision to still include males in female rugby in defiance of the World Rugby’s guidance derived from extensive work. Please do look up the World Rugby guidance and their process. And yet… here we are.

In the case of gender clinics, we have clinicians in the UK from back to 2018 raising issues that have been either ignored or attempted to be suppressed and proof over the past 12 months from two court cases that this is so.

And yet here we are. Told that I find it hard to believe that a treatment that has been in use for this length of time is so clearly the wrong choice for the majority of people being prescribed it.

Oh… you mean prior to 2018 then, when at least 10 (one third of the staff at the clinic where David Bell worked) staff reported concerns. Oh, and even Steensma who is recognized as being probably one of the world experts (even Butterfly acknowledges this), has stated publicly there is an issue.

So… how many years of treatment for the current spike of that rapid increase of adolescent females does that cover now?

As I said, people are free to believe what they wish to believe.

It becomes an issue when posters seek to shame posters for discussing the issues. And when it is intimated that discussions are transphobic and hateful and ignorant.

FlyingOink · 01/10/2021 12:34

Some reddit posts about binding are being collected as receipts on Tumblr :
bisexual-slime.tumblr.com/post/662790121103425536/FRANKIEFOSTERF-D3NT4L-D4M4G3-RFTM-ABOUT
The posts are from r/ftm and there is another collection somewhere of posts about vaginal atrophy on testosterone.

FlyingOink · 01/10/2021 12:34

Sorry that was for shesellsseacats

FlyingOink · 01/10/2021 12:41

I've lost count of the number of discussions I've had on here with people who have asserted that changing society to accept gender non-conformity is too difficult and it's much better for people to 'transition' so that they fit in with what they believe is expected by a society which doesn't accept gender non-conformity. I've always assumed such people to be very young and/or to have no knowledge or understanding of history. Or possibly that they have another agenda altogether.

Or they are posting from the Islamic Republic of Iran

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/10/2021 16:21

In this link, a writer has gone into the history of lobotomies (first performed in the 1930s) and the social environment that meant literally stabbing into patients' brains with icepicks became a clinically accepted treatment and pointed out the parallels with today. It's well worth a read, and one of the issues seems to be that once something is accepted, the fact that it is accepted is a reason to continue to accept it! Remind you of anything?

4thwavenow.com/2017/02/10/lobotomy-the-rise-and-fall-of-a-miracle-cure/

Now, how long did it carry on for? This is an interview with a woman from earlier this year, about lobotomies being performed on lesbians, for being lesbians, in 1960s Britain.

extract

Luchia Fitzgerald, 74, is a renowned lesbian activist and credited with creating the first women’s refuge outside ofLondon.

But during the late 1960s, she was almost forced into having a lobotomy to ‘cure’ her sexuality following a run in with the police.

Just a teenager at the time, she had been living homeless inManchesterafter arriving in the city in 1961. She had come across a stolen bicycle and used it to get home, resulting in her being stopped by the police.

Due to her young age, she was assigned a social worker, who noted that she was suffering from severe depression. Their conversations led to Luchia revealing her sexuality, and the woman told her it was likely her ‘lesbianism’ was the root of her problems.

Luchia said: ‘She sent me to a doctor. I didn’t know what was going to happen to me, but I thought if anybody can help me, that’d be great.

‘I thought there was nothing wrong with me to me. I was natural, but these people seemed to think I wasn’t. They were the professionals, and you listen to them at that early age.’

Luchia went to a hospital which would later become North Manchester General, where, unbeknownst to her, a number of experimental treatments were taking place with the aim of ‘curing’ homosexual behaviour.

A doctor then asked her ‘terrible’ intrusive questions about her body and sex life, which appalled her as a practicing Catholic at the time.

He told her he would send her for a ‘little operation’ to cure the feelings she was having – which immediately signalled to her that something was very wrong.

Luchia said: ‘I knew I was about to be sucked into something I couldn’t get out of. I was sat in front of this massive mahogany table between us and his back was against the wall.

‘I just thought, if I can get my little legs up on this table at the front I can pin that fecker to the wall and get out the door. And I did.

‘I ran through all these corridors, the sweat was pouring off me, I was frightened to death. I was nearly weeing myself. Eventually I found a door that let me outside and I got out.’

Luchia managed to reach a friend’s house and stayed there while the police hunted for her. Two officers later turned up at the door and asked if she was Luchia Fitzgerald, which she denied.

She believes the officers knew she was lying – particularly as they noted her distinctive Irish accent – but they chose to accept her claims and eventually walk away.

‘I’ve always wondered if one of them was gay, or if they knew what was happening at the hospitals,’ Luchia said.

‘They saved my life. Months later, I was washing glasses behind a bar and I met someone who’d had a lobotomy in Belfast. She told me, if I come in tomorrow and I don’t know who you are it’s because I’ve had an operation and it’s ruined my memory.

‘She then explained how it happened, and I realised that was what they were trying to do to me. I was thanking my lucky stars.

‘Other older lesbians I spoke to told me I should never go back there again. They all knew people it’d happened to. We were guinea pigs back then, they had free rein on anybody outside the norm.’

Continues: metro.co.uk/2021/02/23/lgbt-history-week-i-was-sent-for-a-lobotomy-to-cure-my-sexuality-14106930/

Helen8220 · 01/10/2021 17:40

@OldCrone

That wasn't what I meant. Not at an individual level, anyway. I've lost count of the number of discussions I've had on here with people who have asserted that changing society to accept gender non-conformity is too difficult and it's much better for people to 'transition' so that they fit in with what they believe is expected by a society which doesn't accept gender non-conformity. I've always assumed such people to be very young and/or to have no knowledge or understanding of history. Or possibly that they have another agenda altogether.

The idea that societal expectations can't be changed is absurd when you think the changes which have come about in the last century or so. Women didn't get the right to vote, wear trousers, work after marriage etc by saying they were men, they got this by challenging what society thought was acceptable for women.

I absolutely believe that societal attitudes about gender will change with time, and completely agree that we should try to hasten that as much as possible, not least by challenging gender stereotypes and supporting those who are gender non-conforming; I just don’t see it as an either/or with accepting and respecting how trans people feel about their own identity in the society we currently live in. If a trans woman said to me they believed they had no choice but to transition because they like ‘women’s things’ or want to wear a dress and make up - on the basis that it somehow necessarily follows, rather than because of the way others might treat them - I would politely disagree. But I don’t know how it feels to be trans, and I have heard many powerful accounts from trans individuals of how deeply uncomfortable they felt prior to transitioning. I’m not going to judge or make assumptions about individuals who, for whatever reason, do not feel able to live as a non-gender-conforming person of the sex they were biologically born as.

I sincerely hope that this is a transitional phase society is going through on the way to a more fundamental dismantling of gender.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2021 21:06

I hope it's a phase, too, Helen. But how many children/people will have their fertility taken away, unnecessary surgeries, longterm health issues created in the service of treating 'gender incongruence'?

OldCrone · 01/10/2021 21:22

I have heard many powerful accounts from trans individuals of how deeply uncomfortable they felt prior to transitioning. I’m not going to judge or make assumptions about individuals who, for whatever reason, do not feel able to live as a non-gender-conforming person of the sex they were biologically born as.

I had always assumed that such people had a deep disgust of the primary and secondary sex characteristics of their own bodies. This must be extremely distressing, and I can understand if those people feel driven to surgically modify their bodies.

There are also people who insist that one or more of their limbs disgust them or 'don't belong' to them. For reasons which aren't clear, surgeons seem more reluctant to remove those disgusting limbs than to modify someone's genitalia.

What I don't understand though, is a male person self-identifying as a woman whilst being in possession of a full set of male genitalia (and having no intention of changing that). In fact some such males seem very proud of their 'lady dicks'. How is someone like this different from a crossdresser or a gender non-conforming male?

OldCrone · 01/10/2021 21:35

I sincerely hope that this is a transitional phase society is going through on the way to a more fundamental dismantling of gender.

How can it be a transitional phase when we have gone backwards? On another thread today a poster said that all the other female students on her daughter's STEM course identify as transgender. How are we ever going to get back to a position where women can do the things which were previously reserved for men if girls are being told that if they want to do those things they must be trans (ie not really girls)?

The ideology of 'gender identity' reinforces gender. It will never break it down because its function is to prop it up.

CharlieParley · 01/10/2021 22:49

We are going backwards. My youngest had lessons on gender identity at school, another kid from our family (same age) had lessons on gender identity at a school in a different town in the same month. Both were told by teachers that if you are gender-non-conforming you might be trans. My youngest thought it was bollocks, the other kid was distressed, because the teacher said if a girl likes a boy thing she might actually be a boy, then you go to the doctor's, the doctor gives you a pill and you grow a willy.

Now I am certain the teacher did not actually say the bit about taking a pill, but at that young age that's what the kid took away from the lesson - if you are a girl and have any interests or preferences stereotypically associated with boys, you might be a boy inside and the doctor will fix your body so you can be a real boy on the outside, too. Only that was a kid who had been encouraged to like all manner of things, no matter who people said it was for. So being told that meant not being who you thought you were - a normal kid with diverse interests - was a shock.

We know these lessons have been taught up and down the country. The lack of proper definitions makes understanding what you're asked to teach difficult. You have to find age appropriate ways to explain the concept of a gender identity to ten-year-olds (in some cases even younger kids). So you reach for the things the kids will understand - boy things and girl things. That's because kids recognise patterns and observe their environment and the people within it and so most of them go through a gender conforming and even enforcing stage in early primary school. They police each other for a while on gender norms (today much worse than in the 70s or 80s), then they learn to understand that they are not bound by these norms as they grow up.

That growing awareness of being normal even if they break out of gender norms is now being disrupted. In some children the impact is worse than on others, with the result being huge spikes in children diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

Thanks to the doctrine of gender identity that utopia of a genderfree world is today much further away than it was 50 years ago.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2021 22:54

Yep, I have heard of children getting very confused with how boys 'should' act, and that if they enjoy then they might be trans, etc.

It certainly seems regressive and sexist to me.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 01/10/2021 22:59

extract

Will explained that one of his children had always identified as a girl and that she is happier than ever since the toilet changes.

He said: “I did battle it all for a couple of years because I’m a bit of a geezer.

“But it’s always been this way. I used to buy her a toy car and she would cry because she wanted a doll.

“My other child has always gravitated towardsfootballand cars but she liked dolls and toy make-up.

“She used to go to school dressed as a boy but as soon as she got there she would go in the dressing up box and put a dress on.

“She’s the happiest girl you’ve seen now that she’s made to feel like a girl.”

www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/19600460.dad-whose-child-identifies-girl-devastated-school-gender-neutral-toilet-row/

Sexist bloke. Had child who didn't have the same stereotypically masculine interests as brother.

Now bloke has decided he has a daughter, because that's easier than accepting that boys can like dolls. And child is happy for now because dad has finally stopped kicking off about toys and dress-up outfits.

Datun · 01/10/2021 23:22

The ideology of 'gender identity' reinforces gender. It will never break it down because its function is to prop it up.

Exactly. Its behind me how any even vaguely analytical person could think otherwise.

What possible description can be given to 'thinking like a girl' that doesn't one hundred percent rely on old fashioned stereotypes?

Datun · 01/10/2021 23:39

*beyond

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 02/10/2021 04:29

Retrospective transing of a late lesbian civil rights heroine because she played with boys' toys.
thevelvetchronicle.com/grave-robbers-declare-pauli-murray-was-not-a-woman/

Helleofabore · 02/10/2021 09:33

If a trans woman said to me they believed they had no choice but to transition because they like ‘women’s things’ or want to wear a dress and make up - on the basis that it somehow necessarily follows, rather than because of the way others might treat them - I would politely disagree.

Are you saying that you would not believe that male transitioner saying they are a woman because ‘they like ‘women’s things’ or want to wear a dress and make up’?

Yet you would if they simply said ‘I am a woman and I always have been’ and left it at that?

Have I read that correctly? What is the difference?

Helleofabore · 02/10/2021 10:02

Here is the bone study I was looking for.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/#!po=67.5000

Bone Health in the Transgender Population

Micol S. Rothman and Sean J. Iwamoto

From 2019

Also unknown are the long-term effects of puberty blockade, the effect of changes in body composition and the optimal type, timing, dosage, and route of administration of GAHT for bone outcomes.

And

GnRH analogues are frequently employed to provide puberty blockade in adolescents with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria. From their use in other medical conditions such as prostate cancer, their deleterious effects on the bone are well known, although these have the potential to be reversible if treatments are stopped or add back therapies can be given

And

However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully make up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline

Meaning, the authors acknowledge little is known about the lasting effects of puberty blockers. In this study, they propose some positive effect from cross sex hormones for females but the results show that it doesn’t really make up the loss from puberty blockers

And that loss of density corresponds with the lupron findings.

Helleofabore · 02/10/2021 10:27

One last link before I go off to work.

I am not sure if this one has been posted but it is an interesting read.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

If discusses the drop in referral after government changes to media portrayal of transpeople and a review of treatment protocols (incidentally, Sweden has this year heavily restricted the use of puberty blockers after this review).

In the fall of 2019, there was a 65% decline in the number of referrals to gender clinics in Sweden. This corresponded with experts calling on the government to review clinical protocols and more balanced media coverage of the phenomenon of regret among gender transitioners, including the airing of a documentary entitled “Trans Train”.

It is always interesting to see what happens when health services are not pressured to give priority to lobby groups and to be able to take an explorative approach instead, without heavy influence. And the Karolinska has been free to study trans health without bias for a long time, if I remember correctly.

Helen8220 · 02/10/2021 11:25

@Helleofabore
Are you saying that you would not believe that male transitioner saying they are a woman because ‘they like ‘women’s things’ or want to wear a dress and make up’?

Yet you would if they simply said ‘I am a woman and I always have been’ and left it at that?

Have I read that correctly? What is the difference?

What I’m saying is that I wouldn’t agree, as a general principle, that a person who wants to dress in stereotypically women’s clothes (etc) must be trans. But that doesn’t affect the way I treat trans individuals, and it’s not for me to judge or second guess the reasons that led any particular person to be trans.