The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

[MaudTheInvincible]

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

I think I should make my position clear if I haven't

I do not believe that anyone is 'born in the wrong body' I can't see how that is biologically possible as every cell in your brain and your body has the same sex chromosomes
I do believe that gender is culturally determined and as such a persons perception of their gender is influenced by the culture they are born into.
I do believe that some people can, for various reasons, be very distressed about their sexed bodies and come to strongly believe that they need to 'be the opposite sex'
The sad reality is that they never really can be and yet for some the quest to get as close to that as possible becomes all consuming. They have a strong belief that if they were able to be the opposite sex their problems would go away.
I do believe that for some people the desire to be the opposite sex is so strong that they might be happier if that wish were as close to granted as it can be but that is in itself such a hard road that I hope very few people have to go down it
I would prefer that we were able to help people psychologically adjust to living in the body that they have and overcoming their difficulties (I myself had an ED as a young person and I know something about what it is to deeply believe that your body is wrong and unacceptable and about the seductive fantasy of believing you can correct it to be what you want. I have now accepted that I could never have the body that I want, that my overwhelming obsession with that was a displacement from different trauma and that I can be OK as I am)
I believe that people suffering with gender dysphoria need a lot more help than they get but I don't think that help should consist solely of a focus on changing their bodies especially not at a really young age.
I don't agree with giving puberty blockers to young children as there is a lack of scientific evidence of the risks vs benefits and in any case the putative benefit is really to achieve as good a 'pass' for the opposite sex as possible which may not be a prize worth having as a 'pass' is never really going to be good enough if you want the real thing.
I do think it's wrong to leave people on a waiting list for years with no help at all with how they are feeling and I think it's no wonder they turn to dangerous unregulated sources of help
I do think GIDS is not fit for purpose and not helping anyone and needs a rethink.
I think there should still be some access to cross sex hormones and surgery for adults with a persistent wish for those things who are able to give informed consent and who have undergone extensive psychological therapy and understand all the implications as there always was in the past.
For children the focus should be on psychotherapy and support to cope with their feelings and I don't agree that there is a need to 'pause puberty'.

The problem is that my view as expressed above might very well be derided as transphobic and 'pedalling conversion therapy' if I were to express it at work. Even people who have not thought very much about these issues at all are keen to toe the party line and not be seen as bigots. Therefore there is no challenge to validation being the only game in town.

@FlyingOink - your perogative, of course. I can only implore you to consider the 'hold your nose and vote' phenomenon that the Tories gleefully leveraged over Brexit to get us to this point last time.

@MrsOvertonsWindow - I think I read it just fine. CovoidOfAllHumanity is concerned about 'medication first' and uncritical affirmation strategies and thinks that therapy is the only appropriate context for the administering of life-changing medication or surgery. Theirs is a position shared by many on this forum, alongside sizeable parts of the medical establishment. They've offered thoughtful, useful suggestions and practical considerations about how to address the issues with GIDS while demonstrating a willingness to discuss this matter, and even though I don't agree with all their conclusions, they appear grudgingly willing to entertain the notion that hormonal and surgical interventions can at least sometimes have been a 'least harmful option' for the many thousands of people who have undergone them and reported finding happiness, even if they have serious quality of life concerns. @CovoidOfAllHumanity that about right?

@OldCrone - I think I've made it pretty clear that I think the approach should be careful evaluation of a patient's circumstances and mental health to determine whether pursuing irreversible medical treatment will be of more benefit than harm! I've shared my own experiences of this process having a positive outcome for myself and many of my friends who have managed to live happy lives despite experiencing severe prejudice alongside our ongoing struggles. I don't particularly want to retread this again as I've done it quite a few times now.

On 'gendered souls' and authenticity when it comes to transness: I believe that human beings are complex systems of biological processes that give rise to conscious behaviour and thus personhood and are worthy of being treated with respect and dignity. I don't have particularly strong opinions when it comes to the metaphysical implications of those processes - I'm not sure those are even knowable or meaningful - but I think that 'suffering' is about as real a concept as 'carbon atoms' are, and where it can be mitigated, we're obliged to do so while believing the subjective experiences of those so afflicted, and respecting their wishes.

There's been a fair bit of talk of causing harm, and the idea that medical transitioning is somehow inherently harmful. It is! It puts the body's systems under stress and causes damage that takes time to heal alongside loss of functionality and innervation. It's a really rough road and should only be followed by people who will benefit more than they will suffer from it. Until we have better technologies, it's the best we can currently do for some people. It's not perfect - more an ongoing process of refinement in line with new techniques - but denying the efficacy of the entire process as an option at this point, and even advocating for the wholesale refusal of services, is a stance that ignores decades of evidence.

your perogative, of course. I can only implore you to consider the 'hold your nose and vote' phenomenon that the Tories gleefully leveraged over Brexit to get us to this point last time.

So I have to hold my nose so I don't smell women's rights being burnt to the ground, but holding my nose while investment in public services drops is unacceptable? Are you telling me what to smell now, as well as what to think?

I'm not pretending it's an easy choice, and your mention of Brexit is entirely irrelevant. Lastly of course it's my fucking prerogative, it's my vote. I don't need your permission. Your concerns are different to mine. You stand to benefit from proposed changes, and I stand to lose out. I would have thought that would make your voting intentions different to mine!

There's been a fair bit of talk of causing harm, and the idea that medical transitioning is somehow inherently harmful. It is! It puts the body's systems under stress and causes damage that takes time to heal alongside loss of functionality and innervation. It's a really rough road and should only be followed by people who will benefit more than they will suffer from it.
100%

advocating for the wholesale refusal of services, is a stance that ignores decades of evidence
Double check that evidence! Long term studies show no benefits and an increase in suicidality. You might well be an outlier, have you considered that?

advocating for the wholesale refusal of services, is a stance that ignores decades of evidence

Oh my god!!!

Either the part of the Internet you arrived at MN from doesn’t do what we do here on MN does and disseminate and review as many studies (from the original source), and papers and professional opinion as we can. Or you have debunked them all. Which is it?

I did think it was that you had alternative evidence that contradicts the clinicians. I now think you have never bothered to read them. Maybe you don’t know where to look?

Or maybe as with other posters in the past, it is the female component that you know little about and cannot acknowledge that lack of curiosity, or awareness. As I mentioned up thread, we have seen this before.

There is now a growing pile of evidence that puts your last comment onto foundations that completely lack any robustness. We have been telling you since you have arrived on MN!

Plus not one shred of evidence was presented that proved that affirming only treatment worked to the extent you assert at a High Court hearing where the foremost experts in the UK were the defendants. And they could draw on the expertise from across the world. And they couldn’t!!!! And their report that miraculously appeared the week after the court case finished couldn’t either.

It's a really rough road and should only be followed by people who will benefit more than they will suffer from it.

And this is the absolute crux of the situation. It seems that you simply cannot acknowledge that you seem to know so little about the current cohort of transitioners. And you seem to not be able to acknowledge that the clinics have been a) lax and b) maybe even restricted from conducting appropriate research and review into the current cohort by lobby groups who decried any whiff of research that may indicate anything other than positive outcomes as transphobic.

If you want to see some of the documents that are highlighting the issues we are discussing, maybe get off your high horse and ask. Did you read purgatory ‘s link? Do you know the class action that Lupron is going to soon face against the use of this drug on girls for precocious puberty? That is merely the start and that is just the effects of Lupron.

Did you know that in a long term review of European transitioners, adult transitioners, between 8-9% of medically transitioned people had detransitioned? I think it was 8.3% of females and 8.9% of males who were reviewed after a decade or more after transition. Those numbers are there in a peer reviewed study released within the past 5 years. It seems to never get mentioned … but the numbers are there.

This ‘decades’ of evidence? You keep ignoring too that Dr Steensma, one of the apparent developers of the Dutch protocol which has led to affirming only, has acknowledged it may not be appropriate for treating this current cohort. Have you googled to see what he says because I have mentioned it at least twice before?

No? Why not?

While your personal anecdote might well be evidence that it can be useful for some. It is clear from the growing numbers of female detransitioners (and some male detransitioners too) the system is not working as it should.

How many female transitioner’s lives are you happy to call collateral before this aggressive agenda of affirming only can been reviewed without the hostile accusations from activists?

I am sure your answer will be n+1 because that is the answer we have come to expect over the years.

So. Rather than continue to regale us with just anecdotes, please back up your position with evidence that refers to the current cohort of female transitioners. Bring it on. If you have lurked for a while before posting here, you know we love peer reviewed studies and papers. So, please link us up.

(And please don’t provide us with the usual bundle of 52 or 53 studies that I have personally gone through which have no relevance to young female transitioners)

Looking forward to seeing new evidence.

Evidence that affirming only treatments that include puberty blockers and then CSH is the best treatment option for the majority of the current cohort of transitioners.

That being teenage FEMALES!!!

I reckon most of us will be rather excited to see it.

TLDR?

Please start providing evidence to support your claims about who affirming only is the best treatment option for.

Evidence that affirming only treatments that include puberty blockers and then CSH is the best treatment option for the majority of the current cohort of transitioners.

That being teenage FEMALES!!!

No more anecdotes.

Link us up to this evidence you speak of, otherwise all you have is emotive reasoning. And we genuinely love seeing peer reviewed studies and papers.

Love them!

Not a single person under 17 has been referred and seen by endocrinology since December. Not a single person. 9 whole months after years of Webberley etc.

Hoo-fucking-ray!

More seriously, yes @ButterflyHatched

Stop gracing us with your esteemed opinions. Provide us with the research upon which your opinions are based.

Many here have done so for your benefit, and are willing to continue to do so for as long as you are here. We like research, are capable of reading it, some of us are capable of writing it, and we don't take any medical claim on the says so of any poster.

So step up your game or admit you are waffling...

curious

Hoo!!!

I think butterflys position illustrates quite nicely the worryingly solipsistic, self oriented nature of the problem, and how this thinking is societally endorsed in a way and to a degree that it never has been before. I was set on this train of thought this morning by fitts post upthread about the pressure and grief in the families of transitioners.

The hyper focus on the self as the primary locus of identity is a very modern phenomenon. It completely ignores the social contract- I perceive myself to be this therefore so must everyone else. Society at large is conceptualised solely as a threat. This ignores decades, hundreds of years of research and philosophical enquiry into how the self is shaped in negotiation with society, how we only exist and think and feel and act as we do and are as a result of the society and the people we grew up in and around. It’s a negotiated, mutual state.

Nobody exists in a vacuum, “no man is an island”.

Taking this amount of credit/responsibility for ones self is a recipe for dislocation, poor relationships and unhappiness. If your conception of yourself relies entirely on other people uncritically endorsing and supporting your view of the world, then it’s going to fail. It’s going to fail often, and painfully. When people fail the test and thereby become the enemy, then pretty soon, the whole world will be the enemy.

It’s a way of thinking that I associate very much with the “child” role and ego state of transactional analysis. It is all about the felt experience and the emotion. It expresses as “I want” and “it’s not fair”. It’s quite amazing to me to see this kind of thinking take hold on front bench politicians, medical professionals and goodness knows where else. There is something about this issue that causes people to jettison everything they know about politics, psychology, medicine, ethics, safeguarding, parenting and many other domains.

Women here are “failing” because most of us are in adult mode- rational, thinking, analytic, problem solving. The “child” ego state wants an interaction with the “parent”- nurturing type - who will soothe and support, comfort and care for. it’s like being drenched in psychological cold water that a site called Mumsnet is full of adult ego states who won’t parent any passing child ego

No wonder we get so much grief.

Interesting analysis Sophocles. It makes a lot of sense, especially the anger that is displayed against women asserting their rights.

I am wondering whether it is sunk in yet that the avoidance of that acknowledgement that females have significantly higher risks associated with the treatment that activists and lobby groups are pushing so very hard for, is in fact pure sexist discrimination.

Discrimination against females again. Just like has been medically done for centuries now.

And that some of those pushing for such discriminatory agendas believe that they are not only feminists, and supposedly socialised as females, but continue to put themselves in positions to influence policies affecting females under the guise of working for women.... while being male.

They are advocating for agendas that negatively affect females, but benefit males while seeking to shame the women pointing out they are wrong through slurs, hostile language and simply ignoring they exist.

The dissonance when that is realised, that they are supporting discrimination in this way, must be quite hard to calm.

I’m afraid I haven’t read any studies on this, but a quick Google brought up this, and I would be interested to know your take on it. Apologies if you’ve already addressed this up thread. whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

You are right Helen.... it was 51 studies not 52 or 53.

I have looked at each and not one discusses the current cohort of teenaged females. I said so upthread but thanks for linking this up.

I could find the thread where I began dissecting the subject matter on them, but frankly I ended up just listing the topics they related to. And NOT one was useful in any way to describe the current situation.

There really does seem to be an over riding theme in many activists posts and that is that they simply have never looked in any depth in the research. But are only too keen to jump in on the side they believe is on the right side of history without being informed.

And seek to shame those who actually have followed this closely, and some of the regular posters on here have followed this for a decade. Plus some posters actually have daughters going through this (directly or indirectly) right fucking now!

Do posters actually believe that parents are simply ignorant and hateful? With equal emphasis on both IGNORANT and HATEFUL.

What do I think?

Self report, questionnaires are well recognised to be self selecting and biased. It takes great care to avoid internal bias and a review of such studies has no way of correcting, or often recognising, any existing bias.

Read the methodology of the studies included...

To determine the self-reported quality of life
the largest survey of the UK trans population to date
Outcome was evaluated as changes in seven areas of social, psychological, and psychiatric functioning.

Each of those studies adds up to one strong message: more research is needed into the expectations and outcomes of transexual interventions. More rigorous, less inherently biased studies are required.

I say that as a qualitative researcher well versed in transactional analysis, phenomenology etc.

Just going to throw in a link to a related thread I've just started, which links to an article dissecting the evidence of childhood transition studies being presented to a US court at the moment

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4361793-The-Lukewarm-Perjury-of-Jack-Turban

The extent to which Jack Turban, one of the leading voices in the youth GD debate, creeps right up to the line of lying even in a document he is filing in court under penalty of perjury suggests something has gone profoundly and dangerously wrong.

I thank Helen for actually posting some links to read. And I am sure that many of the lurkers and readers will read them with interest to. There are some very interesting studies there, but not as relevant to the topic at hand as they could be.

I look forward to more links though.

I’m afraid I haven’t read any studies on this

We know, it shows.

@NecessaryScene

Just going to throw in a link to a related thread I've just started, which links to an article dissecting the evidence of childhood transition studies being presented to a US court at the moment

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4361793-The-Lukewarm-Perjury-of-Jack-Turban

The extent to which Jack Turban, one of the leading voices in the youth GD debate, creeps right up to the line of lying even in a document he is filing in court under penalty of perjury suggests something has gone profoundly and dangerously wrong.

That will be awesome. There is so much to unpick with his articles

So many good posts. Especially the recent insightful post from Sophoclesthefox .

To think we're allowing children to be groomed into this extreme level of narcissistic thinking is frightening for their future. We'll have (already have?) generations with limited critical thinking, an avoidance of science and facts and an overwhelming belief in their own self importance allied with a contempt for anyone who doesn't kowtow to their demands.

Thanks Necessary. Who ever JLCederblom is, they have provided a treasure trove of studies (their insight seems to be quite balanced too) to look at. Some of which I have read before, and others I have not.

The fact that so many simply cannot uphold the longterm improvement clearly is so very, very concerning.

But it is as we discovered, GIDS could not produce any clear evidence from any studies from around the world last year in court. I do know that there is some significant reviews happening in Australia around tracking patients and reviewing. I am very much looking forward to these reviews coming through although I have not seen a expected date of publication.

I can only hope that whatever is produced has robustness to the methodology and to the conclusions so that some confidence can be gained. Where at the moment, there is absolutely none except by those very heavily invested in amplifying poorly quantified conclusions.

There's been a fair bit of talk of causing harm, and the idea that medical transitioning is somehow inherently harmful. It is! It puts the body's systems under stress and causes damage that takes time to heal alongside loss of functionality and innervation. It's a really rough road and should only be followed by people who will benefit more than they will suffer from it.

But even if you believe in gendered souls, why does the body need to be altered? Why can't someone believe that they have a female soul in a male body or vice versa and leave the body alone?

Interestingly this is what a lot of older male transitioners do. So why is this option not given to children as well? Why do they need to be medicated when older transitioners can keep all their body parts and just change their name and dress differently?

If anyone has their interest piqued in transactional analysis, then the best introduction is probably “The Games People Play” by Eric Berne. It’s an easy, interesting read.

I find it very helpful in understanding interactions, particularly unproductive ones.

www.amazon.co.uk/Games-People-Play-Psychology-Relationships/dp/0345410033?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

@ButterflyHatched

I was wondering if you had any thoughts as to why you had gender dysphoria in the first place?

If you've already answered that, apologies, I must've missed it.