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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

999 replies

MaudTheInvincible · 16/09/2021 19:19

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow
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Helleofabore · 23/09/2021 09:16

Adults who have never experienced gender dysphoria obsessing over the actions and decisions of trans kids has always been distasteful and disturbing to us

I might have missed it over the past few pages of the thread as I have skimmed, however, I am yet to see any acknowledgement about the higher risk and the very high potential for life limiting effects of the medicalised treatment for FEMALES.

Additionally, I have yet to see much acknowledgment (and I might have missed it) of the make up of the current cohort of transitioners being skewed towards young females. Making hearing about a male perspective interesting, but frankly, not actually not all that relevant to current transitioners and their needs. Which is obviously imperative to the standard procedures of the clinics who have the remit of providing the highest evidenced care plans for this group.

So, to a parent of a vulnerable teen. One who witnesses daily how this downplaying of medical transition and this fixation on gender identity actually plays out amongst my teen’s friends. I think being told my interest is distasteful and disturbing to adult male transitioners who seem to constantly skip over the needs of these young teens, is of little consequence.

I am sure that I am not the only parent on this parenting forum who feels the same.

Helleofabore · 23/09/2021 09:17

And to make the assumption that we have never experienced gender dysphoria is also showing a lack of knowledge about the people reading and discussing these topics on this forum.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 23/09/2021 09:25

I am sure that I am not the only parent on this parenting forum who feels the same

No youre not

LongBlobson · 23/09/2021 10:33

I certainly wasn't a gender-conforming child, or comfortable with being a girl. I look forward to reading about people's experiences.

Just to be really clear, I'm not saying I know what it is like to experience dysphoria or to be trans, in any way, or to minimise the distress and uniqueness of that experience.

I am interested in whether there are any parallels between the experiences, or whether it's a completely different thing. Being trans and being a gender non-conforming child who becomes a gender-critical feminist seem like they could be different ways of a person responding to all the gender stuff that gets attached to biological sex in our society and I wonder whether others (feminists and trans people) feel the same.

anothermansshoes · 23/09/2021 10:41

Long, I think yes in a lot of cases they are different responses to the same triggers

Which to my mind proves that trans is not innate
It proves to me that blockers are not the only solution

I think that's why older women are often dismissed- wee we break the narrative

we had no choice to somehow work through our problems, and looking at the data , it is improbable that many resolved those problems through suicide

ButterflyHatched · 23/09/2021 10:43

OK, sounds like there's quite a lot to talk about here with respect to experiences of dysphoria in childhood and I -really- want to give that discussion room. I'm cautious about taking over and dominating a thread I've already taken up a lot of space in; and doubly so don't want to impose myself as the force that's directing that discussion.

Would people prefer to have the discussion here or start a new thread to keep replies together? This all feels relative to the provision of blockers in children - at least as relevant as any of my own contributions - but I want to be sensitive rather than just blithely blundering on. I also don't want this stuff to get lost in what is already a very long thread that grows ever more intimidating with each new page.

This isn't my space; it's yours.

anothermansshoes · 23/09/2021 10:47

Try to not think of this as not your space, you are othering people which can create mindsets that are not collaborative

This is a public forum

Will leave your main question to others as I should be working

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 23/09/2021 10:52

butterfly

As another said it is a public forum

Personally I think another thread would be in order as i see this thread as being keiras

I lurk a lot…but i read just about everything

LongBlobson · 23/09/2021 10:59

I think a new thread would work well.

CharlieParley · 23/09/2021 12:32

I'd prefer a new thread, ButterflyHatched. This would also give more posters the chance to chime in with their experiences as they may not be following this thread anymore (since we've strayed quite far off topic at times).

OnlyTheLangOfTheTitberg · 23/09/2021 13:30

It casts the very real and immediate suffering of many kids as a worthy sacrifice in the name of preventing the hypothetical future suffering of a statistically miniscule some.

But it’s not a statistically minuscule number. 80% of gender questioning children reconcile with their birth sex if allowed to progress through puberty naturally. So it stands to reason that a proportion, potentially a significant proportion, of the young teens (primarily girls) being prescribed PBs with all that means in terms of near-certain progression onto CSHs, will regret their transition because they fall within that 80%.

I’ve asked this repeatedly and never had a response: what is the diagnostic tool or criteria that doctors or psychologists are using to identify which are the 80% who will desist, and which are the 20% who will persist? Because to medicalise the former without application of a robust diagnostic process, knowing what we do about the rest of the pathway it’s sending them down and the lack of evidence that that pathway helps, is absolutely appalling.

(Well, it’s appalling that any child be subjected to such a life-changing ‘treatment’ that has no evidential basis for its efficacy in improving mental well-being, but to do it to children who don’t actually need any treatment in the first place is utterly heinous. IMO any doctor prescribing PBs to Tanner stage 2 children without being able to evidence that they have diagnosed them as being in the 20% persistent gender incongruence cohort should be struck off.

First, do no harm…

NancyDrawed · 23/09/2021 14:03

[quote NotBadConsidering]Here you go Butterfly, a clip about Jazz Jennings. Amazing that Jazz’s story passed you by. Here is Jazz visiting the surgeons who performed several procedures. Stark admissions of how experimental the procedures are on someone who has undergone complete pubertal suppression with no tissue to work with, surgeons arguing mid procedure about what they’re actually seeing, Jazz openly discussing lack of sensation and so on. But yay puberty blockers!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCVA9q3RBc[/quote]
I feel dreadfully sorry for Jazz, who appears to be caught up in a path planned for her but not necessarily BY her, and who I fear may come to if not regret her transition being made so public, may resent that fact looking back.

Dr Marci Bowers at 1.55

'When I wasn't here when you had problems and had to go back, I can't tell you how stressful that was'

Excuse me? A teen child has had some horrific complications from surgery and Dr Bowers wants to make it all about how stressed Jazz's severe complications made them feel? I imagine Jazz was feeling rather stressed (and in goodness knows how much discomfort or pain) too.

InvisibleDragon · 23/09/2021 14:34

Returning a bit to the ideas of capacity to consent and the Tavistock / GIDS process ... (This is loooong, sorry)

Butterfly I haven't read all of your most recent posts in detail, but what I hear is that your experience of puberty blockers and transition was a relatively smooth one that perhaps represents a best case scenario:

  • you were ?mid-teens when you started on blockers
  • your transition was MtF, so blockers stopped you experiencing the irreversible effects of testosterone, which was the original intention of the Dutch protocol
  • you were part of a small initial cohort, so you were given a lot of information about the long term impact of early transition and had the time to ask questions and come to weigh up the different options and come to a decision that worked for you
  • You were seen as relatively 'stable' compared to other clients by the clinicians you saw - so presumably you didn't have other serious mental health difficulties / a significant history of trauma or abuse (or were able to work through that alongside your gender identity issues); you had a supportive, accepting family background and are roughly neurotypical.

For you, that meant that you were able to make an informed decision about transition that you were comfortable with at the time, and that has worked out well for you in the long-term although you have had some (small) health problems as a result of transition.

I think in clinical terms you were able to show that you were Gillick competent - that you had the capacity to make that decision about your health at that time.

However, I think a lot of things have changed in the 20 years since then.

Firstly, the number of referrals GIDS deals with has increased enormously. The yearly referral rate was about 30x higher in 2019 than in 2010 (www.transgendertrend.com/surge-referral-rates-girls-tavistock-continues-rise/). The size of the GIDS team has not increased by nearly that much. That partly means longer waiting times, but it also means less time for clinicians to really work in depth with the young people they see to help them find the best option for them. Kiera Bell said that her assessment sessions were perfunctory; and there are reports of patients being referred for treatment after just a couple of sessions despite concern from other clinicians.

Whilst you may have had the capacity to consent to a treatment that was presented as highly experimental, it really doesn't seem that today's cohorts are afforded the same level of care. That's very concerning, particularly when it is clear that much younger children are now being put on blockers.

Secondly, a lot of the young people referred to GIDS today have very complex backgrounds. About 40% have diagnosed autism or score highly on autism screenings. Others have experienced sexual abuse and other childhood traumas that have affected their sense of self and their feelings of dysphoria. If you read the judgement from the Sonia Appleby tribunal (www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/mrs-s-appleby-v-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-2204772-2019), it is clear that GIDS discouraged and impeded their clinicians from getting support and making safeguarding referrals when they had concerns about a child's wellbeing. That's really bad. It's probably partly the result of being overwhelmed with work already (making safeguarding referrals is quite time consuming), but it shows that there is a general culture in which the needs of vulnerable children are not being recognised.

There is also a thread throughout the Appleby judgement about children in homophobic environments who may be same-sex attracted identifying as trans, in some cases in a way that seemed parent driven. It's clear that clinicians were concerned about these types of referrals, but that they were shut down by senior staff as "transphobic". That's also really concerning. This and the lack of consideration about trauma, abuse and non-neurotypical clients, especially coupled with the quite cursory assessment process, suggests that there are children and young people being put on this pathway of blockers and transition for whom other pathways could be more suitable. That's not to say that transition is inherently bad. Just that it comes with a heavy medical burden (infertility, loss of sexual sensation/function, lifelong medication, risky operations, reduced bone density, increased cancer and osteoporosis risk), especially if natal puberty is halted very early. So it is very important that other psychological issues are well managed so that a young person is in the best possible place to make a decision about transitioning; that other alternatives to childhood transition are considered, and that any safeguarding concerns about reasons for wanting transition are properly investigated. Based on all the evidence from GIDS, I am not convinced that any of that happens at all, making me very concerned about the harmful and potentially unnecessary treatments being given to children and adolescents.

Thirdly, the demographics of GIDS referrals has changed hugely. The Dutch protocol (blockers followed by hormones) was designed for young people who had experienced (parent documented) gender dysphoria from childhood and tbh who were mostly transitioning MtF. That was the bread and butter of GIDS 20 years ago. Today a lot of the referrals are for people who want to transition FtM and who only started presenting as trans at the onset of puberty. They are being put on the sam pathway but it's a much poorer fit. Blockers that stop masculinisation at puberty are good at helping trans girls to pass better as adult trans women; but blocking the growth spurt at puberty blocks trans boys from even reaching the adult height they would have attained without blockers. Trans boys, because they still remain biologically female, are also at much greater risk of serious osteoporosis in adulthood if they miss out on the bone density increase of their natal puberty.

It's also worth considering that the concept of being trans is much more prominent than it was 20 years ago. (Note - this paragraph is more speculative. I'm basing my argument on ideas from Ethan Watter's book 'Crazy like us' about how people in different times and different cultures have different ways of expressing psychological suffering.) That means that it's very possible that young people are more likely to express distress through the lens of gender dysphoria. Whereas 20 years ago someone might have developed anorexia or used self-harm, similar feelings of distress and alienation may be interpreted by young people today as evidence of being trans, with transition viewed as a concrete solution to their unhappiness. Those young people may interpret steps along a path to transition as proof that their suffering is genuine, valid and understood by others. That's not to say that there can't be more young people for whom transition is genuinely an appropriate pathway, but we need to be very careful to fully explore a young person's understanding of transition (in a way that, as above, I don't think GIDS is doing) before starting them on a pathway to an early medical transition.

Finally, there have never been any proper randomised controlled trials of puberty blockers for trans children. 20 years ago this was a very new idea, so proof of concept trials with no control group are a reasonable first step. However, today we still have no high quality data to say (beyond anecdotes) that puberty blockers have any clinical benefit. Data that we do have (see the NICE review of evidence here www.evidence.nhs.uk/document?id=2334888&returnUrl=search%3fq%3dtransgender%26s%3dDate ) suggests that there might be a small improvement in depression when teens are given blockers, but that there is no significant effect on anxiety, anger, dysphoria or other quality of life measures. At this point, we are beyond asking whether a child can consent to the treatment; we need to ask why the treatment is being offered at all, given that it functions no better than an antidepressant and comes with a much longer list of severe side effects.

At this point, I honestly don't think GIDS is fit for purpose. I am uncomfortable with blockers being prescribed outside of a clinical trial with a control arm (placebo, treatment as usual, waitlist, take your pick ...). I would also want to see wholesale restructuring of their service and preferably much tighter integration with other mental health services before I had any confidence that they were able to practice safely and meet the healthcare needs of the children they support.

ButterflyHatched · 23/09/2021 17:16

[quote NotBadConsidering]Here you go Butterfly, a clip about Jazz Jennings. Amazing that Jazz’s story passed you by. Here is Jazz visiting the surgeons who performed several procedures. Stark admissions of how experimental the procedures are on someone who has undergone complete pubertal suppression with no tissue to work with, surgeons arguing mid procedure about what they’re actually seeing, Jazz openly discussing lack of sensation and so on. But yay puberty blockers!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCVA9q3RBc[/quote]
I've never been able to stand reality tv; Big Brother was one of the cultural fixtures of the time when I completed my journey into adulthood and I found it to be both completely unwatchable itself, while heralding in a wave of intrusive, obnoxious media that seemed to hypnotise pop culture. By the time season 5 was seemingly broadcasting everywhere while I was living stealth at uni and the punchline of every joke seemed to be Nadia's transness, it really started wearing thin. Being invited by default to the special friends speakeasy transphobia club as an unknowing honourary member was eye opening, to say the least, and it cemented in my mind that the last thing I wanted to do was consume popular media about trans people, especially around those who didn't understand and viewed us as a source of ghoulish fascination.

Sounds like parts of this one are worth watching, though. Thanks for the link.

It looks like poor Jazz has had a pretty rough ride, and it can't have been fun to have your life and struggles broadcast to the world as consumable entertainment even if it was evidently instrumental in helping educate a new generation.

Not to mention those shots of surgeons arguing, and the impression that must have given both to and of her, her family, and to the wider world; the way that must serve as fodder for the people who frequent ghoulish sites like kiwifarms that seem to revel in and relish documenting the suffering of others. Ugh.

It's all pretty gross, really. Can't really think of anything worse. I hope that the scars from a childhood spent living in the public eye like that are ones that she's able to heal and move on from, and I hope she's able to end up in a body she's, if not completely happy with, then at least at peace with.

Fitt · 23/09/2021 17:43

I can only laugh at that post.

I am Jazz has been served up to the public as a wonderful story of a trans child finding their truth. Complete with a conversation Jazz had with mum and dad where Jazz asked dad how important a "pretty vagina" is to him. Dad did actually squirm quite badly at that point.

This is the most pro trans family on the planet, educating us all.

We have learned a lot from it.

ButterflyHatched · 23/09/2021 18:38

@Fitt

I can only laugh at that post.

I am Jazz has been served up to the public as a wonderful story of a trans child finding their truth. Complete with a conversation Jazz had with mum and dad where Jazz asked dad how important a "pretty vagina" is to him. Dad did actually squirm quite badly at that point.

This is the most pro trans family on the planet, educating us all.

We have learned a lot from it.

Yeah I cringed at some of that too. At least it seems to be emotionally and factually honest, which is rather more than most reality TV can claim. I wonder about the context for the surgery clip - manipulative editing is something of a fixture.

What do you think you have learned?

ButterflyHatched · 23/09/2021 18:47

@Waitwhat23

It has genuinely been interesting to hear from someone who has been through the transitioning process.

In the specific context of females transitioning though, I think many women's concerns are around the massive, unexplained jump in girls expressing a wish to transition (Penny Mordaunt has quoted a number of 4400% in her requests for this jump to be investigated). There seems to be no real research going on to investigate this Europe-wide trend (although some such as Litmans's research into a possible social contagion aspect was actively blocked by her University). There also seems to be a higher than expected connection/correlation(?) between autism and gender questioning which autism charities have stated as a research strand which should be investigated. The lack of research into the trend as a whole is, frankly, quite baffling. It's the kind of thing you would expect multiple disciplines to be investigating, for students to be researching for their dissertations as the big current 'issue'. There's next to nothing. It begs the question, why?

The use of puberty blockers at an early age doesn't seem to be such an advantage to females transitioning as it is to males transitioning (examples I've seen mentioned are height being restricted in females for example) and the effects of both puberty blockers and cross sex hormones seem to have a particularly detrimental effect on the female body .If a more lengthy 'watchful waiting' process could be more beneficial for females in particular so that irreversible decisions are not taken which are then regretted, it seems odd that there seems to be a push towards early medical affirmation.

We don't often get transmen commenting on these boards - it would be extremely interesting to find out their views.

On the autism point - yeah, it's hugely interesting. Likewise ADHD (which, of course, has a great deal of crossover). There seems to be pretty overwhelming evidence of comorbidities (if you want to use that term given the consistent move to depathologise transgenderism) of some kind - most of the trans women I know have ADHD.

I'm in contact with a whole bunch of trans guys, most of whom transitioned about the same time I did or at least prior to the methodology shift in GIDS, some of whom are autistic. I don't think I'll ever be able to convince them to post here - it would be fair to say that they'd rather chew their own arms off than subject themselves to what is not exactly a friendly atmosphere, no offence intended - but I might be able to collect and relay some data regarding their own experiences.

FlyingOink · 23/09/2021 18:50

InvisibleDragon, excellent post

Fitt · 23/09/2021 20:50

I wonder about the context for the surgery clip - manipulative editing is something of a fixture.

What is manipulative about it? Is showing the fact of complications manipulative or just uncomfortable to people who don't want that in the public domain?

What do you think you have learned

What the hypnosis episode and then come back and ask that question.

Fitt · 23/09/2021 21:33

I'm in contact with a whole bunch of trans guys, most of whom transitioned about the same time I did or at least prior to the methodology shift in GIDS, some of whom are autistic. I don't think I'll ever be able to convince them to post here - it would be fair to say that they'd rather chew their own arms off than subject themselves to what is not exactly a friendly atmosphere, no offence intended - but I might be able to collect and relay some data regarding their own experiences.

Did someone just spell out how alienated this movement makes young people from parents?

We know this is part of the problem, and as you are presenting this as a passive agressive "do better" trope clearly you are on board with that.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/09/2021 21:47

Agreed Fitt
I'm far more concerned with safeguarding and the wellbeing of this group of young women. TBH, the barely disguised simmering rage disguised behind a word salad of passive aggressive comments is tedious. Hopefully the thread can either come to a natural end or get back on track.

Fitt · 23/09/2021 22:07

There's so much pass agg flowered up with the I'm too beautiful for the #girlslikeus blether that I can't be be picking up most of it.

You really just have to read the transwidows thread at the same time to get the full effect.

NotBadConsidering · 23/09/2021 22:22

I feel dreadfully sorry for Jazz, who appears to be caught up in a path planned for her but not necessarily BY her, and who I fear may come to if not regret her transition being made so public, may resent that fact looking back.

Jazz was 10 when puberty blockers were started. Jazz could not have consented to this pathway.

Not a single post of ButterflyHatched has addressed the fundamental issue of how children this young can consent to the pathway that is outlined to clearly in I Am Jazz.

Consent, consent, consent.

Even as an adult Jazz isn’t consented properly. Watch this other video. Jazz returns to the surgeon again because of concerns about the urinary stream. Told it’s a common complication. Jazz and mother surprised to hear that. If it’s a common complication why weren’t they told before? Also discuss a painful lump. Told and confirmed it’s a stitch that needs removing. Again, surprised to hear that there is still a stitch there. Two common issues only explained afterwards. How can they have consented properly? And notice the focus on cosmetics. It’s all about how it looks.

This isn’t manipulative editing. This is a program designed to celebrate how amazing Jazz’s life is. These clips are official The Lifestyle Channel (TLC) clips. They will be edited to make it look as best as they can. I’m sure there’ll be footage considerably more damning that’s been left on the editing floor.

But this is the life now for these children. All the children who start puberty blockers at the age they do can expect the same medical pathway. The surgeons themselves say the procedures are experimental.

The only way children will avoid the same complications that Jazz has had is if they avoid surgery, or struggle to find someone willing to undertake the surgery on tissue that has undergone zero development.

How can children consent to this at the age of 10?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=EeH8PYyXocg

Fitt · 23/09/2021 22:34

I feel dreadfully sorry for Jazz, who appears to be caught up in a path planned for her but not necessarily BY her

Butt's starting post here was all about how great it was that Bell v Tavistick was "out of the way" so that 10 year olds can go ahead unimpeded.

A day later Butt is describing it as being a path a ten year old has been caught up in.

PaleGreenGhost · 23/09/2021 22:43

Incredible post, invisibledragon