The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

[MaudTheInvincible]

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

Can I just check before we proceed: are you basing this stance on Kiera Bell, who started blockers at 16, hormones at 17, had surgical intervention at 20 - which, I might point out, she owns and accepts as a decision she made, even if she blames clinicians for letting her take the steps before it - and in fact, whose narrative doesn't actually have an overlap with determining the capacity for consent of under-16's at all, beyond conjecture?

No, I’m basing it on my knowledge of children and their capacity to understand adult concepts like sex, orgasm, fertility and so on.

Do you think blockers should ever be used? I'm not trying to catch you out or back you into a corner; I just want to understand what you actually believe. Is it ever appropriate to administer them, at any age?

Not for gender reasons, no. You’re not catching me out or backing me into a corner. I don’t believe children should be denied an essential component of human development - puberty - because people don’t think their acute distress at the time can be managed any other way or because adults are telling them they wish their lives were different. All evidence currently points to the fact that any medical treatment - be it puberty blockers, wrong sex hormones, hormone treatments for adults, surgery for adults - doesn’t help mental health.

I actually largely agree that one particular facet of this treatment when it comes to young people transitioning away from female secondary sexual characteristics appears to afford a little more breathing room -solely when considering physiological outcomes - when held side by side with the male equivalent.

That’s the first time you’ve mentioned females, but there is no evidence they do better psychologically.

It has genuinely been interesting to hear from someone who has been through the transitioning process.

In the specific context of females transitioning though, I think many women's concerns are around the massive, unexplained jump in girls expressing a wish to transition (Penny Mordaunt has quoted a number of 4400% in her requests for this jump to be investigated). There seems to be no real research going on to investigate this Europe-wide trend (although some such as Litmans's research into a possible social contagion aspect was actively blocked by her University). There also seems to be a higher than expected connection/correlation(?) between autism and gender questioning which autism charities have stated as a research strand which should be investigated. The lack of research into the trend as a whole is, frankly, quite baffling. It's the kind of thing you would expect multiple disciplines to be investigating, for students to be researching for their dissertations as the big current 'issue'. There's next to nothing. It begs the question, why?

The use of puberty blockers at an early age doesn't seem to be such an advantage to females transitioning as it is to males transitioning (examples I've seen mentioned are height being restricted in females for example) and the effects of both puberty blockers and cross sex hormones seem to have a particularly detrimental effect on the female body .If a more lengthy 'watchful waiting' process could be more beneficial for females in particular so that irreversible decisions are not taken which are then regretted, it seems odd that there seems to be a push towards early medical affirmation.

We don't often get transmen commenting on these boards - it would be extremely interesting to find out their views.

[quote NotBadConsidering]With regards to oestrogen - wrong sex hormones as I now call them - you say you’ve only had one serious side effect. So far. Have any of your doctors told you about the fact you’re at increased risk of breast cancer? And stroke? You’re only in your late 30s.

www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/study-shows-increased-risk-of-breast-cancer-in-transgender-women/[/quote]
They seem pretty right to me, but you do you. I first had that conversation at Mermaids some time before my first appointment at the Portman clinic, when someone was lamenting being told by their doctor that they had to stop smoking immediately or would never get access to hormones (what a meanie). I've had that same conversation about risks with every new team and GP I've spoken with since. It's not the kind of thing one doesn't mention when prescribing or reissuing medication that has a small chance of killing you, but it's definitely not the most dangerous medication I'm on, by a very wide margin!

Ok, serious face: Before we go any further on this subject, I'm tentatively willing to go here, but I've already been told I'm appropriating the struggles of real women, and the effects of hormone therapy and the associated risks feel an awful lot like something that is going to be extremely aggravating to see being discussed. I'd really rather not, if it's going to cause offence.

Adults who have never experienced gender dysphoria obsessing over the actions and decisions of trans kids has always been distasteful and disturbing to us

How do you know we haven't? At least some of those campaigning on this are women who experienced gender dysphoria when they were younger, but worked through it/grew out of it/made their peace with it, and see themselves in the girls being labelled as trans today. It's that empathy that makes them want to ensure that these kids aren't taking any permanent steps when they aren't mature enough to be certain that it's the right path for them, and that any treatment pathways they are put on have a solid evidence base behind them.

When referring specifically to desisters and the tiny proportion of detransitioners

We don’t know what the proportion of detransitioners is, because these females are only just hitting their late teens/early 20s. It’s another unknown.

many of whom, I should point out, cite the same issues that I and those in my cohort struggled with in our late teens and early twenties in their reason for detransitioning: i.e, that existing in a world that hates you is hard - we're referring to a tiny fraction of vulnerable, often very confused people who manage to cheatsheet or otherwise trick themselves into embarking on what is otherwise an extremely effective and carefully managed treatment pathway.

This sails very close to the wind to blaming these children for gaming the system. If it’s a carefully managed pathway, how is it that children who shouldn’t get hormone treatments end up on hormone treatments? How do you ensure they’re the right children?

Or find that their feelings on gender change over time, or even find themselves caught up in movements that seek them out and actively encourage them to detransition while telling them how courageous and brave they are and how any doubts they might be experiencing are the side effects of those nasty chemicals. No, this isn't hyperbole - this happens. I've seen it happen, repeatedly. I've lost friends to it, sometimes for years at a time. Sometimes forever. I've seen people bounce back from it, and I've seen people get swept up in it, disappearing into a cloud of misanthropy, cynicism and rage that takes years to unsnarl, and sometimes never does.

So children are simultaneously fully cognisant of the decisions they’re making if they choose puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones, but if they desist, they’re being negatively influenced by external sources? Righty-o .

So do you or do you not think it’s possible that children might change their minds when they’re adults?

As an aside, I'd be -fascinated- to know if any wider followup studies become available with statistically significant findings. My peers and I were indeed guinea pigs, trailblazing an experimental treatment in tiny sample sizes, largely without followup for our own protection, and of course I'm genuinely curious.

Yet somehow we are supposed to accept that this branch of medicine has its house in order so well that we should just blindly accept all that they’re doing to children right now. They’ve been at it 20 years with no data, but that’s okay, just let them crack on! The dissonance is astounding.

Can you imagine if this was any other branch of medicine?

“We started a new cancer treatment 20 years ago, no idea how they’re all doing [shrug]. Mind if we carry on with these kids?”

@GAHgamel

Adults who have never experienced gender dysphoria obsessing over the actions and decisions of trans kids has always been distasteful and disturbing to us

How do you know we haven't? At least some of those campaigning on this are women who experienced gender dysphoria when they were younger, but worked through it/grew out of it/made their peace with it, and see themselves in the girls being labelled as trans today. It's that empathy that makes them want to ensure that these kids aren't taking any permanent steps when they aren't mature enough to be certain that it's the right path for them, and that any treatment pathways they are put on have a solid evidence base behind them.

I was hoping someone would go here, as I'm intensely curious, but it felt crass to ask! This is often a vibe I've gotten from the GC community, and seems to be something of a shared internal point of commonality, but almost impossible to initiate a discussion on as a blundering clueless outsider without rightly feeling intrusive.

This is really interesting and if you haven't already said this elsewhere and/or are willing to do so, please, please elaborate. With the exception of a few hints made by Rowling and a few other prominent GC's, these stories just don't seem to get told.

Would you allow me to ask a few questions? Please tell me to eff off if you'd rather just not.

I firmly believe that the only people who have any business questioning the decisions of children experiencing gender incongruence are primary caregivers and medical professionals empowered to evaluate and, if necessary, assist them in taking steps to address their suffering.

This is such a blinkered attitude. So we should only concern ourselves with things which affect us personally? You seem to be suggesting that we should all live in our own personal bubbles where we only worry about what happens to ourselves and our close relatives and not what happens to anyone else in the world.

I've had that same conversation about risks with every new team and GP I've spoken with since. It's not the kind of thing one doesn't mention when prescribing or reissuing medication that has a small chance of killing you, but it's definitely not the most dangerous medication I'm on, by a very wide margin!

But you seem unaware that 7 years of puberty blockers will have significantly reduced your bone density.

I would hope that doctors who prescribe oestrogen to biological males do keep abreast of the published evidence and counsel their patients each time, otherwise they risk opening themselves up to accusations of malpractice.

Saying that, how does a doctor counsel a 20 year old female about the long term effects of testosterone when there is so little data?

Here you go Butterfly, a clip about Jazz Jennings. Amazing that Jazz’s story passed you by. Here is Jazz visiting the surgeons who performed several procedures. Stark admissions of how experimental the procedures are on someone who has undergone complete pubertal suppression with no tissue to work with, surgeons arguing mid procedure about what they’re actually seeing, Jazz openly discussing lack of sensation and so on. But yay puberty blockers!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=-bCVA9q3RBc

Jazz Jennings is not really a poster child for early puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. Multiple surgeries, sterilised, no sexual desire, a mother on camera talking of her difficulties getting Jazz to dilate “that thing” and morbid obesity.

Stark admissions of how experimental the procedures are on someone who has undergone complete pubertal suppression with no tissue to work with

The problem with surgery on someone who had never been through puberty should have been well known by this stage. There was the same problem with Susie Green's child about a decade earlier. There's a video somewhere where Susie Green laughs about the surgeons 'not having much material to work with'.

Would you allow me to ask a few questions? Please tell me to eff off if you'd rather just not.

Go ahead, ButterflyHatched. As someone who would have met both the old and the new diagnostic criteria, I will try to answer.

Underlying much of this is the under discussed, often hidden but very real medicalisation of teenagers - often by adults allowing this or feeding the flames.

This doesn’t just go for gender. It’s about self harm, needing ‘an identity’ which is based on a either a disorder or group defined by being different, unique or special. Which will answer all problems for that person apparently.

It coincides with the massive rise in social media, of going down rabbit holes in their beliefs and being encouraged to feel that anything not quite right, or different, such as feeling anxious (must be autism) feeling down (must be clinical depression) questioning identity (gender dysphoria)… it is no coincidence that autism and gender identity is so interlinked.

The young person is told that if they don’t find their identity and be treated for it in some way, that they will suffer terrible effects and that all problems will be solved within this if they just decide to join or identify as whatever it is.

This all when a child is 13, 14 etc.

It’s the opposite of a secure, healthy, supportive reaction for adults to encourage. Social media is full of adults telling kids that they don’t need to listen to their loved ones or parents and they understand them more because they are TW or autistic lr whatever and their family couldn’t possibly know them as they are ‘not one of them’

It is very akin to grooming children. It’s extremely worrying. And very disappointing that we are just letting children be exploited and told what to think when they are still only just exploring at the very start of thinking about any of this stuff.

@ButterflyHatched

I wanted to thank you for taking the time to share your experiences and views so openly, eloquently and patiently, despite being the target of quite a lot of unpleasantness as a result. What you’ve said makes perfect sense to me, and in particular:
Our experiences are different in some ways and similar in others. There is evidently a commonality of experience to existing in society while being perceived as female, while those experiences are also contextually influenced by prior ones. My mother's experiences are also different to my sister's, and to those of my friends. My experiences are even different to those of most other trans women. Many of our experiences are different to those of women who live in different countries under different social paradigms, and many of them also to those of men. It seems pretty clear to me that is no such thing as a singular, monolithic experience; just shared points of commonality.

As a cis woman, I wish others here would stop purporting to speak for me, or assuming that our experience of being a woman is the same.

I wish others here would stop purporting to speak for me, or assuming that our experience of being a woman is the same

And I wish adult transwomen would stop purporting to speak for teenage girls, or assume their experience in a gender clinic 20 years ago is the same as it is now.

Adults who have never experienced gender dysphoria obsessing over the actions and decisions of trans kids has always been distasteful and disturbing to us

As someone who has spent many decades working in safeguarding children, these comments are alarming and frankly sinister. Nobody should be demanding that adults step away from concern about the safety / wellbeing of children, and certainly not label that concern as distasteful and disturbing.
Safeguarding children requires a community. It needs everyone to be alert to the risks posed to children from a myriad of sources. Insisting that one group of children should be left alone and the community surrounding a child must stay silent if they see general or individual signs, patterns or evidence of online grooming / social contagion / harm being done to children.
I hope that ButterflyHatched is speaking from naivety but frankly hell will freeze over before people are silenced from speaking out about the protection and safety of children and adolescents. Nobody should be trying to silence questioning about the impact of this ideology on children - ever.

As a cis woman, I wish others here would stop purporting to speak for me

No one here is purporting to speak for "cis women" as that is a meaningless nonsense term for most of us.

Exactly this.

The one single thing that every female person on the planet has in common, regardless of nation, race, culture, faith, anything other characteristic.

It exists. Female people and their shared biology exists. Their right to identify themselves by this one shared characteristic and to group themselves by it and organise themselves because of it should exist.

Quite correct.

@CharlieParley

Would you allow me to ask a few questions? Please tell me to eff off if you'd rather just not.

Go ahead, ButterflyHatched. As someone who would have met both the old and the new diagnostic criteria, I will try to answer.

Same. I'll answer questions on this but I'm at work so might be a bit delayed

adults who have never experienced gender dysmorphia obsessing over the decisions and actions of ..."

So does that mean you will be less dismissive of me when I say that I also think puberty blockers snd even social transistion is a harmful and unnecessary step in helping such children?

That it is far better to help such children accept themselves , to help such children manage the condition,and to change society to reduce the stigma of being female when you are not conformant to current definition of feminine ?

Or will you ignore any experience gender dysmorphia if it doesn't lead to transition as "not real" ?

I know very well the impact that society , the attitudes of people around you , has on you, how it can make you can sink or swim when xperiencing dysmorphia and so I Ifind those supporting puberty blockers and social transition very threatening.

Many people dislike children who don't fit in, but only a subset tell them that there is something wrong with them that should be fixed , a fixing process that leads to shorter life, poorer health and sterilisation

I'm really interested in this discussion, butterfly! I've read a lot of people on this board saying that that they would have met the diagnostic criteria as a child/teen. And I certainly wasn't a gender-conforming child, or comfortable with being a girl. I look forward to reading about people's experiences.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Adults who have never experienced gender dysphoria obsessing over the actions and decisions of trans kids has always been distasteful and disturbing to us

As someone who has spent many decades working in safeguarding children, these comments are alarming and frankly sinister. Nobody should be demanding that adults step away from concern about the safety / wellbeing of children, and certainly not label that concern as distasteful and disturbing.
Safeguarding children requires a community. It needs everyone to be alert to the risks posed to children from a myriad of sources. Insisting that one group of children should be left alone and the community surrounding a child must stay silent if they see general or individual signs, patterns or evidence of online grooming / social contagion / harm being done to children.
I hope that ButterflyHatched is speaking from naivety but frankly hell will freeze over before people are silenced from speaking out about the protection and safety of children and adolescents. Nobody should be trying to silence questioning about the impact of this ideology on children - ever.

This is all true, and to add to it, one of the most significant flaws of the assessment and treatment pathway, particularly for the girls, is to view it only through the trans lens. Therapists and those that work exclusively with children in gender clinics seem to have forgotten that the world is awash with children in distress for a multitude of reasons, manifest it in a multitude of ways, and are best treated with a multitude of different approaches (apart from those therapists who expressed such concerns at the Tavistock and complained and/or resigned as a result). But I’ve seen some quite startling approaches to children where I cannot fathom how the gender clinic can’t see the wood for the trees. Fresh critical eyes on this process is paramount.

We’ve already seen the impact of this with Sweden and other countries ceasing puberty blockers for children because they know that when viewed through an external lens, it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

I think the things to consider go beyond not conforming bad not being comfortable

You wouldn't consider self harm for example just because you are not comfortable

I guess therefore it must also be how those feelings then affect how you act

How you respond to those feelings

And I think this gets into an overlapping set of thoughts about what leads to depression in some people and not in others , or how some people manage depression and others can't

It's partly predisposition

But it's also the interaction you have with others, wether they are pulling you out of the hole of self hatred of your body or stomping you in

For me

That's not saying oh you have a lovely figure
It's saying your figure doesn't matter