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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

999 replies

MaudTheInvincible · 16/09/2021 19:19

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow
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7
LongBlobson · 21/09/2021 08:57

@ButterflyHatched thank you for engaging with this thread. It's been really interesting to hear your perspective. Like another poster said, I've got loads of other questions I'd love to discuss with you but this isn't the thread for it. I hope you'll feel comfortable to stick around and contribute to other threads.

ArabellaScott · 21/09/2021 09:26

Puberty blockers have risks, interfering with pubertal development has risks. Artificial hormones have risks. Surgery has risks.

All of these potentially serious risks are supposed to be justified by their possible avoidance of potential mental health ill effects - yet we have no evidence that they actually have this benefit in the long term.

(Full discussion of all of this including links to evidence - or comment on the lack of it - here: www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers)

We don't see anorexics being given amphetamines and tummy tucks to stop them from feeling dysphoric about their weight. What is the difference?

OldCrone · 21/09/2021 09:41

This feeds into what I've noticed is a recurring theme here, which is framing discussion of blockers in terms of desistance as a desirable outcome - and by inference, thus, transition as a negative one. Perhaps understandable; this discussion is very much held from the perspective of concerned parents just wanting their children to be happy and safe, and if they'd just get over this whole gender nonsense then we can get our little girl/boy back.

Can you explain why you think there are cases when desistance is not a desirable outcome? Surely the best possible outcome for anyone who hates their body is for them to be reconciled with the body they have rather than having to become a lifelong medical patient who requires ongoing medication and multiple surgical procedures which have variable degrees of success and significant risks.

Fitt · 21/09/2021 09:47

Ok, I'll bite, as while I suspect this is a bad faith read keying on a commonly repeated rhetorical device designed to engineer conflict, I think it's actually worth responding to.

Nope, just a statement of fact.

ArabellaScott · 21/09/2021 10:03

A reminder of the Hippocratic Oath is always helpful.

OldCrone · 21/09/2021 10:07

We're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to desistence. Blockers don't cause kids to become trans - that's a frankly perplexing chicken-and-egg conflation, and I'm honestly not quite sure how you get there logically without deciding on a destination and working your way back. It would be fascinating to see more comprehensive stats on desistence with or without them, but the only way to get those would be to senselessly deny the suffering of desperate people at their most fragile. The entire notion that they're some kind of magical transing juice betrays a worldview that disregards people's stated experiences - not to mention that Kiera Bell's own story flies in the face of this hypothesis anyway.

Nobody is saying that blockers cause children to be trans, but that they prevent the process (puberty) which would cause natural desistance in most of them. This is from the evidence of previous cohorts of children when none of them were treated with puberty blockers. Those who would have naturally desisted are now being set on a lifelong medical pathway alongside those who wouldn't have desisted. Some of them will later detransition, but often not until permanent harm has been done to their bodies, as in Keira Bell's case. Keira Bell's story, contrary to what you imply, is proof that some of the children who are given this treatment shouldn't be.

Blockers do help kids -who were going to transition anyway- do so with as little suffering as possible, and help mitigate the crushing pressure and sense of a ticking clock for those who need more time to decide if it's right for them.

The problem here is that nobody can be certain which children are going to decide to transition later anyway and which will desist. All we do know is that around 80% (or possibly a lot more in the case of teenage girls) will desist without treatment with puberty blockers. And the idea that it gives them time to decide has been shown to be a myth, since puberty blockers lead to cross sex hormones in nearly all cases (all but one in the Tavistock study).

Kiera Bell's experiences indicate that they weren't right for her, and there are a small number of people - which will only grow in time, because the genie is most definitely out of the bottle now - around the world for whom this is the case.

So you recognise the harm this treatment is doing to a growing number of teenagers, girls in particular.

I admire her bravery in speaking up; I despise the way her situation became a source of harm for others, and a rallying cry for reactionary forces.

What harm for others? And what do you mean by reactionary forces? People who are concerned about the welfare of vulnerable children are not 'reactionary forces'.

Wharehina · 21/09/2021 10:15

@ButterflyHatched How were you prescribed puberty blockers by GIDS at the turn of the millennium when GIDS didn’t start prescribing puberty blockers until 2011?

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 21/09/2021 10:27

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OldCrone · 21/09/2021 10:37

[quote Wharehina]@ButterflyHatched How were you prescribed puberty blockers by GIDS at the turn of the millennium when GIDS didn’t start prescribing puberty blockers until 2011?[/quote]
I was also surprised at this claim, as I didn't think GIDS were prescribing puberty blockers at this time, so I tried to find when they did start. On the GIDS website they say:

Starting in 2011, the Gender Identity Development Service at the Tavistock undertook the Early Intervention Study to provide a research framework to the lowering of the age at which young people could access puberty blockers from 16 to 12.

gids.nhs.uk/news-events/2021-02-02/early-intervention-study-shows-puberty-blockers-are-well-received

I couldn't find out when they started prescribing them at 16+ though.

EdgeOfACoin · 21/09/2021 10:43

I remember reading a magazine article back in the mid-90s about a UK-based young ftm transitioner looking at obtaining puberty blockers for gender dysphoria. I'm not sure if this person had to travel abroad, or the blockers were imported, but it seemed to be a treatment that was available in some way at the time. IIRC, the young person was supported in this by GIDS (or whichever institution dealt with cases of gender dysphoria in the nineties).

I don't think we should jump to conclusions that Butterfly is being deliberately misleading.

PermanentTemporary · 21/09/2021 10:48

Agreed Edge.

FlyingOink · 21/09/2021 11:04

There is, of course, a component here where our culture absolutely despises trans women. They're traitors to the patriarchy and invaders of the sisterhood; wretched creatures that our media tells us are inherently worthy of contempt and disgust. We've become so good at warping their stories and framing everything they do and say in a negative light that, well, they're damned regardless of what they do and how they behave - and that cannot help but feed back into the issue. We, culturally, see physical markers of maleness as undesirable when present in women. We're all prisoners of this miserable paradigm. I hate it - it's such an awful, wretched state of affairs, and the sooner we're free from it, the better.
What?
an incredibly heartless way of looking at things; one which completely disregards the multi-component nature of the trans kid experience, focussing on aesthetic physical changes alone and concerning itself largely with the comfort of an external observer
But isn't passing partly for the comfort of an external observer? You cause less discomfort than Danielle Muscato, say. And blockers in a young male lead to an inability to become aroused but an ability to pass. So the use of blockers focuses largely on aesthetics rather than function.
I think it's even possible for transition to be right for a person now, and for them to later seek to detransition/transition back without, at any point in that journey, being 'wrong'.
This is nonsense. This is a major undertaking with permanent physical and psychological effects, to suggest reversing it is no big deal is doing detransitioners a huge disservice. If someone has had permanent surgical alterations to their genitals, is dealing with scarring and incontinence, has limited movement due to mastectomy scarring, or phalloplasty donor site tissue damage, or has a painful neovagina to dilate forever, it seems really crass to suggest the decision wasn't wrong, and can just be reversed. Especially if puberty was blocked - there's no organic puberty going to kick in, fertility is gone. If someone spends ten years in prison due to a miscarriage of justice, sure they can be let out, but those ten years are already gone. Not everything can be reversed.
It would be fascinating to see more comprehensive stats on desistence with or without them, but the only way to get those would be to senselessly deny the suffering of desperate people at their most fragile.
These stats exist, on blockers almost nobody desists. Off them, 80% do. And with regard to suffering, the drugs increase suicidal ideation and prevent the child from going through a puberty in line with peers. The idea that without = suffering is simplistic, and although you might feel that way about your own transition, it doesn't translate into being true for everyone, particularly girls.
Blockers do help kids -who were going to transition anyway-
As adults? How do we know they would transition anyway when 80% desist? How could they transition medically without doctors? Can a dysphoric ten year old just wave a magic wand? There is no way you can say these children "were going to transition anyway" when the adult rates of transition, up to say twenty or thirty years ago, were vanishingly small.

I'm glad everything went so well for you, Butterfly, and that you have suffered no ill effects from having your puberty blocked, and that you pass so well and are so attractive to men and women, and that you have an open and honest sex life where you discuss your trans status beforehand, and that you are conscious of the possible discomfort of women and girls (and men, as you mention in your example). You have shared your stories in a very colourful and flowery way, it has certainly made for interesting reading.

ButterflyHatched · 21/09/2021 11:23

[quote Wharehina]@ButterflyHatched How were you prescribed puberty blockers by GIDS at the turn of the millennium when GIDS didn’t start prescribing puberty blockers until 2011?[/quote]
This is precisely why we need people to be able talk about this - there is so much misunderstanding and outright misinformation surrounding early GIDS, alongside a lack of data, that people assume things which patently aren't true.

GIDS had been cautiously prescribing GNRH Analogue (in my case, Prostap SR - Leuprorelin Acetate) for adolescent patients for several years by the time I went through the pathway. There are people out there who date from several years before me, who will be into their fourties now, whom it would be wonderful to hear the stories of - but the climate of fear and controversy that surrounds our existence makes them rightly deeply wary of coming forward. When you spend a lifetime in a well of almost complete, crushing isolation, unable to speak to anyone other than medical gatekeepers who are perpetually looking for excuses to shut off your medication and delay your treatment pathway, then silence becomes a part of who you are.

There weren't many of us - I never got an exact number, but I believe my 'year' (2000) had somewhere in the region of about 40? I was quite disappointed by the dearth of data that has been retained from that time; it was obviously the defining experience of my childhood that, what with the closure of the Middlesex hospital and the general shift in tone of coverage of trans issues, makes us feel like a bit of an invisible, lost generation who slipped under the radar and disappeared, and for whom there is barely a paper trail now.

My medical record said 'Gender Identity Disorder (Transsexual Type)' last time I checked, but I don't even know how much data got carried forward from then, and I'm not sure how I'd find out.

OldCrone · 21/09/2021 11:52

There are people out there who date from several years before me, who will be into their fourties now, whom it would be wonderful to hear the stories of - but the climate of fear and controversy that surrounds our existence makes them rightly deeply wary of coming forward. When you spend a lifetime in a well of almost complete, crushing isolation, unable to speak to anyone other than medical gatekeepers who are perpetually looking for excuses to shut off your medication and delay your treatment pathway, then silence becomes a part of who you are.

I'm honestly baffled by this. Where have you been living for the last few years if this is your experience?

NotBadConsidering · 21/09/2021 12:01

So you were prescribed puberty blockers at a much later age than the current cohort. Now, they’re started at Tanner Stage 2, or possibly before any physical signs are seen.

For the uninitiated, these are the Tanner stages. If puberty blockers are given at Stage 2 or before, the person’s body never progresses past those stages, which is why I’ve marked the later stages with crosses.

FlyingOink · 21/09/2021 12:08

So you were prescribed puberty blockers at a much later age than the current cohort.

Said mid-teens earlier. So would have been more advanced in the tanner stages

NotBadConsidering · 21/09/2021 12:15

makes us feel like a bit of an invisible, lost generation who slipped under the radar and disappeared, and for whom there is barely a paper trail now.

Well exactly! No one has any long term data. Maybe you’re the only happy one and the rest are miserable, with their infertility, poor sexual function etc. Maybe one of your cohort has had male breast cancer, or a stroke, or a pulmonary embolism from being on oestrogen. Maybe everyone is happy as Larry. Maybe if the clinics had done proper research and follow up on this treatment pathway in the first place we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. Maybe if they had any conscience or diligence to find out how your cohort was doing we might be able to add to the sorely lacking evidence.

As a past poster alluded to, the lack of intellectual curiosity is astounding.

ArabellaScott · 21/09/2021 12:45

When you spend a lifetime in a well of almost complete, crushing isolation, unable to speak to anyone other than medical gatekeepers

I do have an active social life and hobbies that see me travel across the country and abroad (well, until the pandemic anyway) on a regular basis, meeting a lot of new people.

Are both of these experiences yours, Butterfly? You are presenting yourself as both very happy with an active social life, and the opposite, in crushing isolation.

ButterflyHatched · 21/09/2021 13:27

@ArabellaScott

When you spend a lifetime in a well of almost complete, crushing isolation, unable to speak to anyone other than medical gatekeepers

I do have an active social life and hobbies that see me travel across the country and abroad (well, until the pandemic anyway) on a regular basis, meeting a lot of new people.

Are both of these experiences yours, Butterfly? You are presenting yourself as both very happy with an active social life, and the opposite, in crushing isolation.

Both these things can be true. Think about all the things you have experienced in your life; the times when you have struggled with something that nobody around you would or even could understand. Is it really so hard to believe that a person can experience intense loneliness and a sense of near-complete isolation with respect to their personal struggles, while living an active and healthy social life?

That isn't a long-term product of having been on blockers in your teens; that's a product of a combination of our society's cruel treatment of trans people, and a lack of other people who even understand those experiences as a baseline.

ButterflyHatched · 21/09/2021 13:47

@NotBadConsidering

makes us feel like a bit of an invisible, lost generation who slipped under the radar and disappeared, and for whom there is barely a paper trail now.

Well exactly! No one has any long term data. Maybe you’re the only happy one and the rest are miserable, with their infertility, poor sexual function etc. Maybe one of your cohort has had male breast cancer, or a stroke, or a pulmonary embolism from being on oestrogen. Maybe everyone is happy as Larry. Maybe if the clinics had done proper research and follow up on this treatment pathway in the first place we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. Maybe if they had any conscience or diligence to find out how your cohort was doing we might be able to add to the sorely lacking evidence.

As a past poster alluded to, the lack of intellectual curiosity is astounding.

Oh I've definitely had a whole host of health issues - they're a regular topic of discussion with my GP and I'd happily offer them if anyone ever formally approached me for a followup study.

Make no mistake, it's not been a completely smooth road. I'm on three different types of lifelong medication directly associated with side effects of my transition, alongside one that outright would have prevented me from being able to pursue treatment had I been on it at the time. I've a healthy dose of gallows humour regarding the sword of damocles hanging over me after 20 years of HRT, and the likelihood of life-changing implications in the decades to come.

They're all miserable side effects born of the inadequacies of our current technology, however, and it would be quite a reach to state that the cost/benefit equation weighs unfavourably. We are also discovering new risk mitigation strategies all the time - for example, I've been moved onto HRT patches from tablets, which have the same positive physiological effects without some of the drawbacks.

I think framing it as a pithy 'healthy but sad/unhealthy but happy' metric is a bit of a reductive false dichotomy that forgets about the human part of the experience of humanity.

I'm also vastly healthier than a sizeable portion of my non-trans peers; they're struggles, but not particularly huge outliers from the general perspective of a woman approaching her fourties.

ArabellaScott · 21/09/2021 14:13

I'm on three different types of lifelong medication directly associated with side effects of my transition, alongside one that outright would have prevented me from being able to pursue treatment had I been on it at the time. I've a healthy dose of gallows humour regarding the sword of damocles hanging over me after 20 years of HRT, and the likelihood of life-changing implications in the decades to come.

This just sounds terrible, I'm sorry.

Fitt · 21/09/2021 14:15

Not huge outliers at all, actually complete irrelevancies to women approaching their forties.

rabbitwoman · 21/09/2021 14:17

I assume you feel the benefits our weigh these health concerns, though?

I am very worried in deed that the whole procedure has been mis sold. I am certain young people are completely unaware of any side effects (I know. I work with kids).

Not only that, they have been told its all reversible, they can change their minds at any time.

Not ONLY that, they are being told they actually CAN change sex, they WILL be their chosen sex, and the adults around them are also repeating this.

When we see say trans women ARE women, we mean OF COURSE trans women are just as good, equal and valued as anyone else in society, but knowing they aren't actually physically women and never can be...... No one tells the kids that, Butterfly.

OldCrone · 21/09/2021 14:27

Oh I've definitely had a whole host of health issues - they're a regular topic of discussion with my GP and I'd happily offer them if anyone ever formally approached me for a followup study.

Have you approached GIDS and offered your experience for a follow-up study? I think I read that they have no idea what has happened to patients once they have left their care for adult services, so it's unlikely that they would approach you as they probably wouldn't know where to find you.

If you are also in contact with others who went through GIDS at the same time you could all offer valuable information to them which could help current and future patients.

ButterflyHatched · 21/09/2021 15:00

@ArabellaScott

I'm on three different types of lifelong medication directly associated with side effects of my transition, alongside one that outright would have prevented me from being able to pursue treatment had I been on it at the time. I've a healthy dose of gallows humour regarding the sword of damocles hanging over me after 20 years of HRT, and the likelihood of life-changing implications in the decades to come.

This just sounds terrible, I'm sorry.

Without wanting to come across as flippant - the concerns raised here are legitimate and worthy of investigation - it's honestly not terrible at all. It is serious enough to warrant some lifestyle changes as I head toward middle age; sometimes annoying, but I couldn't ever imagine calling it terrible, and I don't believe anyone who knows me - and especially who knew me as a child at the time - would for one moment say I'd made the wrong choice or been treated badly or irresponsibly.

It's not been an easy life but it's been a rewarding one so far, and I like to think that the personal and professional projects I've worked on have genuinely helped make the world a better place that's helped bring joy and fulfillment to others.

There hasn't been a single day in my life where I regretted transitioning. I've regretted a lot of stupid things I did when I was younger; this has been pretty much the only point of absolutely rock-solid certainty.

That's possibly not universal, though, amongst my cohort. I imagine getting to this point and feeling deep regret about the whole journey would be seriously tough.