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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

999 replies

MaudTheInvincible · 16/09/2021 19:19

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow
OP posts:
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Helleofabore · 20/09/2021 21:45

Yes. To be fair, I too am far more interested in the effects and risks of not only puberty blockers (which we have evidence of the effects of thanks to Lupron and the feedback from adult female users of the drugs) but testosterone on females. Listening to the health issues of numerous detransitioners has highlighted just how prevalent these risks are and some, like the early dementia, is only coming to light over the past couple of years from other studies.

Yet these side effects are rarely even acknowledged by male transitioner posters.

CharlieParley · 20/09/2021 21:52

All due respect, ButterflyHatched but we live in a world were millions of us are aborted in utero, thrown on trash heaps after birth, starved and neglected because of our sex.

Where we are considered worthless, stupid and inferior. Our bodily functions considered shameful, dirty and our being sinful. Where we are sold and mutilated for the pleasure of men.

Where six women are killed every hour by the men in their lives - what the UN calls a "global pandemic of femicide". Where we are harassed, assaulted, stalked, raped, and then dismissed if we complain about it.

And the toll this takes on women is enormous. In this country alone, research suggests that one in eight suicides in women is due to domestic violence, with 30 women who have suffered domestic violence attempting to take their lives every single day. Women's Aid released data last week showing that across England and Wales, 45.6% of women in refuge services reported feeling depressed or having suicidal thoughts as a direct result of the domestic abuse they had experienced. However, we know from our work with survivors that this is likely to be the tip of the iceberg because of the stigma and fear around disclosing poor mental health. Not that we really talk about that on here. Not even here.

I have sympathy for your experiences. I do. But that's not because I don't know what it feels like to feel terrified for my life. I have sympathy precisely because I know what that feels like.

FlyingOink · 20/09/2021 21:52

Helleofabore
Someone on Tumblr has compiled screenshots of the r/ftm subreddit and the various questions asked about vaginal atrophy and pain, some have detransitioned or just stopped taking testosterone but the effects don't seem to be reversing, and for some the side effects kick in after only a few months on testosterone. There's another collection of screenshots on binding doing the rounds too, talking about permanent rib damage etc.
I guess all the original posts could be found on reddit but I don't have an account and it's a pain to navigate otherwise.

Fitt · 20/09/2021 22:03

There is masses of information about this is on the kiwi farms SRS thread. They write in unflattering terms about the surgical patients but the overwhelming response and opinion on there is astonishment and anger and disgust with the medics that perform these operations whilst promising fantastic results, lying about complications, and then dismissing patients shortly after. The agreements they sign give no recourse.

If you need a realistic perspective on surgery risks it is probably the only place accessible and of course it's hated as a result.

There's even a thread on J Yaniv's unsuccessful after care.

ButterflyHatched · 20/09/2021 22:03

@FlyingOink

I realised I was about to make a decision with a fair possibility of causing me to become a trans panic murder statistic; this was in my -first week-, and became something of a defining component of my late teens and early twenties. Hang on, that incident became a defining component, or (presumably regularly) almost having sex with men who frightened you became a defining component? The latter doesn't make any sense, especially as you go on to date a sexually aggressive lesbian. Are you attracted to people who ignore your boundaries?

my mere presence in the vicinity of other trans people is an active dysphoria trigger for them
And is this because you pass so well as female that they are triggered by you? Or are you talking about people you have told about your trans status who are presumably jealous?

  1. No, I was a 19 year old attractive - though I certainly couldn't see it at the time; gender dysphoria is brutal - bisexual woman in my first year at university, rapidly gaining my feet but still struggling with crushing insecurity over my appearance. I made some rather foolish decisions, and by that I mean 'not immediately shutting down all romantic overtures the moment they occurred, just to be safe'. I'm not a subscriber to the notion that victims of sexual aggression and predatory behaviour should be held responsible for the actions of those who cause them harm.
  1. The latter, though it's not like it's some kind of magical superpower that reflects on one's value as a person; just a rather grim fact of reality. It's really tough to see people given opportunities you weren't, especially when those opportunities clearly and directly translate into positive outcomes, and that's evidently especially painful for some trans women. I wish it wasn't the case; I'm pretty sure they wish it wasn't the case more, however, and my stance is to give other people's discomfort the right of way.
FlyingOink · 20/09/2021 22:11

I'm not a subscriber to the notion that victims of sexual aggression and predatory behaviour should be held responsible for the actions of those who cause them harm.
That's nice to know. Can you go back to CharlieParley's questions please? We should really try to stay on topic. They were at 18:41. Thanks.

Fitt · 20/09/2021 22:13

my stance is to give other people's discomfort the right of way.
You aren't including women in that though obviously.

Alekto · 20/09/2021 22:23

So. What are the benefits of puberty blockers for trans identified female children?

I have a building sense of deja vu here. I'm strongly reminded of similar posts occurring on threads around Keira's original judgment.

Faffertea · 20/09/2021 22:40

So. What are the benefits of puberty blockers for trans identified female children?

From what I’ve read, and from the Tavistock’s own admission, we don’t know. They haven’t followed up these patients properly.

My experience of when women/teenage girls are given these drugs to try and treat endometriosis and other gynaecological conditions they often suffer the side effects of being plunged into a medically induced menopause. Sometimes those are better than the symptoms of the disease they have, often we end up adding other drugs in to try and mitigate the side effects and everyone is clear they are not a long term solution because of the risks of long term use. It doesn’t take much to extrapolate that to young women with gender dysphoria. The real mystery is why these women and girls are exempt from the usual standard of evidence based care.

NotBadConsidering · 20/09/2021 22:59

She did frequently demand I preserve a sperm sample before I became infertile

Just repeating this, for those who have stated this doesn’t happen (waves to Mimmymum 👋)

NotBadConsidering · 20/09/2021 23:00

@Alekto

So. What are the benefits of puberty blockers for trans identified female children?

I have a building sense of deja vu here. I'm strongly reminded of similar posts occurring on threads around Keira's original judgment.

Agree
Waitwhat23 · 20/09/2021 23:10

@Faffertea

So. What are the benefits of puberty blockers for trans identified female children?

From what I’ve read, and from the Tavistock’s own admission, we don’t know. They haven’t followed up these patients properly.

My experience of when women/teenage girls are given these drugs to try and treat endometriosis and other gynaecological conditions they often suffer the side effects of being plunged into a medically induced menopause. Sometimes those are better than the symptoms of the disease they have, often we end up adding other drugs in to try and mitigate the side effects and everyone is clear they are not a long term solution because of the risks of long term use. It doesn’t take much to extrapolate that to young women with gender dysphoria. The real mystery is why these women and girls are exempt from the usual standard of evidence based care.

A poster on another thread talked about their own experiences of being on these drugs to treat endometriosis. It was apparently a strictly one time, no longer than six months deal and she says it had a massive effect on her health, as a full grown woman. There seems to be very little evidence as to how these drugs effect pre or pubescent girls, especially if taken over a long period of time..
Whitefire · 20/09/2021 23:20

Thank you for sharing your story butterfly and I wish you happiness going forward. However the situation is very different now then it was when you experienced GIDS and so forth, and the safety gates that existed then no longer do. I get that for you the appointments and waits were traumatic however that is what has to be to ensure that the path you eventually followed was right, and this generation of children which includes my children deserve that same level of input as you did when you and I were their age.

It is those such as yourself who need to be standing up and saying that the current systems are not right and are especially failing girls.

ButterflyHatched · 21/09/2021 00:20

@FlyingOink

I experienced being hit on by men and women regularly. I still do. You might pass 100% but you are in your late thirties, early forties and this is not the case for most women, regardless of how varied their social lives might be. Certainly not getting "hit on" by both men and women. Where are you getting "hit on" by women, it is unlikely to be in Iceland. Do you spend a lot of time in clubs and pubs? Women rarely approach men to "hit on" them, lesbian and bisexual women are even less likely to approach a random woman or transwoman.

I'm glad you assumed I was posting in good faith, but again I have to say your posts sound like fantasy. You are humblebragging about your perceived attractiveness and linking it to being a victim of harassment and a potential victim of sexual abuse. That reads to me like some porny fanfic. Also you've derailed this thread and you aren't contributing to the topic of blockers in girls. I get that you are in favour, and that you credit them with your ability to live entirely in stealth mode, but there are numerous questions you've avoided and you seem to keep coming back to yourself, your looks, and your ability to pass.

It's a fair point that I'm already quite uncomfortable about - it's almost impossible to have a frank discussion about treatment that has an outcome on physical appearance without creating this perception, even when simply responding to questions, and it's not like we don't already have a stereotype of being self-absorbed and obsessed with minor appearance details; I'm acutely aware of the rate at which I'm burning goodwill and consuming oxygen in a space that isn't exactly friendly, and I think I've responded to most of the questions that have been asked to which I can give a useful answer, so I'll make this and one recurrent point the last unless anyone has any particularly burning further things to ask. I honestly wasn't expecting to actually see good-faith responses; I expected to just provide a datapoint and disappear - so thanks for engaging.

In answer, then: I spend very little time in clubs and pubs! I was rather more of a socialite in my early twenties, but it always felt like a chore; I don't really like dancing; I really don't enjoy how alcohol makes me feel and I enjoy the way it makes other people behave even less. I've been through the miserable experience of watching (and even moreso hearing about second-hand) one long-term partner's many alcohol-related near misses that I'm absolutely done with it. However, I do have an active social life and hobbies that see me travel across the country and abroad (well, until the pandemic anyway) on a regular basis, meeting a lot of new people.

I get that this sounds like a far-fetched fantasy; it honestly makes me feel kind of embarrassed for having existed, like I have to apologise for being happy - and it's a matter of some frustration that without detonating my entire life and opening myself up to harm, there is no way I can give specific details. I've probably already said too much, but cost/benefit weighting says that it's worth it just to provide a real datapoint.

Maybe one day I'll blow my cover of anonymity, write a book, then spend the rest of my life regretting it and wishing I could put the genie back in the bottle. That's a future problem, I suppose, and it's likely to come with exactly the same general response you've illustrated here; nobody is allowed to talk about experiencing parts of transness as a positive, liberatory thing without inviting exactly this kind of comment.

Anyway, answers: the last. Should blockers be given to teenagers?

I think it's clear I absolutely believe trans girls should be given access to blockers, if they ask for them, after careful evaluation, based on my own positive experiences of having been on them. I had no negative side-effects; they eased the misery of growing up under testosterone, which I unreservedly hated, and am deeply thankful for having been saved from.

Should trans boys be given access to blockers, if they ask for them, after careful evaluation? As a matter of principle, of course my answer should be an unreserved yes - however, I think a measure more leeway can be given here.

Testosterone really does a number on your body, and the irreversible effects on vocal cords, height and hair growth especially are sources of immense pain if unwanted.

Estrogen likewise comes with a whole bucket of extremely unpleasant effects if unwelcome - ones which require unpleasant and dangerous surgery to address - but when it comes to a tug of war between the two, it's testosterone that seems to have right of way in terms of permanent, irreversible and distressing effects that are liable to cause harm and lead to negative long term outcomes.

There is, of course, a component here where our culture absolutely despises trans women. They're traitors to the patriarchy and invaders of the sisterhood; wretched creatures that our media tells us are inherently worthy of contempt and disgust. We've become so good at warping their stories and framing everything they do and say in a negative light that, well, they're damned regardless of what they do and how they behave - and that cannot help but feed back into the issue. We, culturally, see physical markers of maleness as undesirable when present in women. We're all prisoners of this miserable paradigm. I hate it - it's such an awful, wretched state of affairs, and the sooner we're free from it, the better.

I do think that trans boys have less immediate, devastating pressure to get on an early treatment pathway; testosterone is a vicious body-warping engine of transformation, and -without wanting to minimise their struggles in the slightest, as the monkey's paw definitely curls in other ways- they tend to get an easier ride as late transitioners.

Does that mean I think they should be prevented from accessing blockers at a young age, or moving onto CSH/HRT whatever you want to call it?

Quite aside from that being an incredibly heartless way of looking at things; one which completely disregards the multi-component nature of the trans kid experience, focussing on aesthetic physical changes alone and concerning itself largely with the comfort of an external observer; it's also fundamentally unfair and cannot help but feed into a poisonous narrative that minimises, infantilises and ultimately rides roughshod over the experiences of trans boys, casting them as tragic victims who have no idea what they're doing, hypnotised by the evil tune of the GNRH Analogue pied piper leading them astray.

This feeds into what I've noticed is a recurring theme here, which is framing discussion of blockers in terms of desistance as a desirable outcome - and by inference, thus, transition as a negative one. Perhaps understandable; this discussion is very much held from the perspective of concerned parents just wanting their children to be happy and safe, and if they'd just get over this whole gender nonsense then we can get our little girl/boy back.

I think it's possible for people to get very, very confused and transition for the wrong reasons; seeing it as an unrealistic panacea for all their issues. Obviously this is a road to generating an immense amount of misery, and I do not envy the task of adolescent (and indeed adult) psychiatric services in trying to help people find a path ahead that's right for them. There are parts of the internet with an -incredibly, horrendously awful- perspective on transness that genuinely creep me out, and I hope that people caught up in them are able to one day escape those patterns of thought.

I think it's possible for transition to not be right for a person -right now- but absolutely be right later in life. It's a harder road, but a lot of that difficulty comes from our society being so cruel to people who dare not conform. I think it's even possible for transition to be right for a person now, and for them to later seek to detransition/transition back without, at any point in that journey, being 'wrong'. Gender is complicated - I don't claim to understand it; I can only relay my experiences of a relevant part of it.

It's certainly not a journey I'd wish on anyone; I've found happiness at the end of it, but that's very much in spite of the many challenges, and the many nights spent crying myself to sleep and cowering in terror are definitely a sobering counter to any experience of euphoria.

We're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to desistence. Blockers don't cause kids to become trans - that's a frankly perplexing chicken-and-egg conflation, and I'm honestly not quite sure how you get there logically without deciding on a destination and working your way back. It would be fascinating to see more comprehensive stats on desistence with or without them, but the only way to get those would be to senselessly deny the suffering of desperate people at their most fragile. The entire notion that they're some kind of magical transing juice betrays a worldview that disregards people's stated experiences - not to mention that Kiera Bell's own story flies in the face of this hypothesis anyway.

Blockers do help kids -who were going to transition anyway- do so with as little suffering as possible, and help mitigate the crushing pressure and sense of a ticking clock for those who need more time to decide if it's right for them. They certainly make it easier to transition, alongside an enormous number of cultural factors that make transitioning in today's world have rather less of a withering attritional character to it. I wouldn't be to heartless as to say that the difficulty of transitioning in the past somehow made anyone's journey more valid - that's once again an abhorrent way of looking at the entire concept of suffering.

They were right for me. They were right for some of my friends. They would have been right for several more of my friends, had they even known they were an option at a time when they would have been relevant. Kiera Bell's experiences indicate that they weren't right for her, and there are a small number of people - which will only grow in time, because the genie is most definitely out of the bottle now - around the world for whom this is the case. Gender is complicated, journeys don't have to be linear, it's important that we hear her perspective, ideally in a neutral environment without the ludicrous weight of having to be an ambassador for everyone with a similar experience.

I admire her bravery in speaking up; I despise the way her situation became a source of harm for others, and a rallying cry for reactionary forces.

MonsignorMirth · 21/09/2021 00:28

Thank you for posting so clearly, Butterfly. I'm the annoying one that has lots of questions about gender that never get answered, but this isn't the thread for my general curiosity. If I have time sometime soon I may tag you in a different thread to get your POV (if you don't mind of course).

NotBadConsidering · 21/09/2021 00:51

I had no negative side-effects

What?! You’ve already told us you’re infertile. Depending on the age you started puberty blockers you’re bone density will be reduced. Even if you don’t see these as a negative they are still recorded as negative side effects. Children who start puberty blockers at Tanner stage 2 - which wasn’t the case 20 years ago but is now - have no sexual function.

How does someone else who might seem happy know how their life would have been if they had been given the physical and emotional benefits that puberty brings, rather than the perceived detriments? An adult who has never known sex or orgasm will not miss it. It doesn’t mean that it was a good thing they never got to experience it.

This is why the issue is consent. Children cannot understand giving up what they have never experienced.

likewise comes with a whole bucket of extremely unpleasant effects if unwelcome - ones which require unpleasant and dangerous surgery to address

In transwomen, oestrogen raises the risk of breast cancer by a factor of 46. It also increases the risk of cardiovascular thrombotic events - stroke, heart attack etc. This risk cannot be remedied with surgery.

Quite aside from that being an incredibly heartless way of looking at things; one which completely disregards the multi-component nature of the trans kid experience, focussing on aesthetic physical changes alone and concerning itself largely with the comfort of an external observer; it's also fundamentally unfair and cannot help but feed into a poisonous narrative that minimises, infantilises and ultimately rides roughshod over the experiences of trans boys, casting them as tragic victims who have no idea what they're doing, hypnotised by the evil tune of the GNRH Analogue pied piper leading them astray.

Quite remarkable and offensive. The idea that not wanting children to make decisions they don’t understand that will lead to undertaking medical treatments that will cause irreversible changes, harm, negative effects, effects they don’t understand, infertility, poor sexual function, plus a myriad of other problems, medicalisation for life and open to the prospect of surgeries which are entirely experimental and have high complication rates make us “heartless” and only focused on the cosmetics and our own comfort. What offensive bullshit.

You think we are infantilising? Explain to me then how an 11 year old female understands that puberty blockers and testosterone will cause her vagina to never develop properly and will ultimately atrophy.

NotBadConsidering · 21/09/2021 01:07

We're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to desistence. Blockers don't cause kids to become trans - that's a frankly perplexing chicken-and-egg conflation, and I'm honestly not quite sure how you get there logically without deciding on a destination and working your way back

Well we know that pretty much every child who goes on puberty blockers goes on to CSH and is therefore “trans”. But this also means that they cannot be a “pause”. Because if puberty blockers are just a pause, why does no one ever come off them? So either puberty blockers are right for every single child for whom they’re prescribed, or they concrete a view that cannot then deviate. Which is it?

ButterflyHatched · 21/09/2021 01:44

@Fitt

my stance is to give other people's discomfort the right of way. You aren't including women in that though obviously.
Ok, I'll bite, as while I suspect this is a bad faith read keying on a commonly repeated rhetorical device designed to engineer conflict, I think it's actually worth responding to.

I don't think anyone has the right to ride roughshod over the comfort and needs of others. I don't think any trans women have the automatic right to impose their presence in spaces reserved solely for those who experienced early childhood femaleness under the patriarchy if that presence causes harm, and honestly the idea of doing so kind of weirds me out - the lack of shared, meaningful context there would be like going to a meeting of people who experienced growing up in Norway when you'd spent your whole childhood in France. If invited, however, then they should be free to do so - and if they actually experienced it, then it would be honestly really weird to exclude them.

Similarly, I'd have some pretty complex feelings about someone who never experienced teenage girlhood under the patriarchy demanding automatic inclusion in spaces concerned with that specific experience - and this includes trans women who didn't, which honestly makes me feel pretty rotten. This is a complex situation, of course - transition does not equal trans, and there are ideologies that axiomatically hold it to be impossible for trans people to ever have an authentic experience, and that was certainly the overwhelming paradigm of feminist thought from when I was growing up, which very much informed my own behaviour in my twenties and convinced me that the things I was quite literally firsthand experiencing were somehow not real.

I've spent my entire life obsessed with minimising harm to others; with taking up as little space as possible; with avoiding imposing my presence on spaces where it might be unwelcome and generally being a good little well-behaved quiet meek and unassuming trans person, always polite, always tirelessly willing to explain if asked, never taking offence, never demanding anything more than a baseline modicum of human respect and dignity. I've had to backspin over parts of my Tragic Backstory in the past as a survival strategy in a hostile world, and tried to make a point of avoiding situations where that might come to be contentious. Post-surgery, at the point where it was something I was willing to even comprehend, I've held it as a point of politeness to inform sexual partners I am trans, and give them zero-pressure room to back out if that's a problem for them (nobody ever has, and indeed were somewhat offended by the notion that I thought they might, but it was just Something We Used To Do in case).

However, I draw the line at ignoring people's direct lived experiences, and honestly, I've always on some level been aware that this whole paradigm was an incredibly toxic set of behaviours born of that latent inbuilt transphobia we all grew up under, which demands every trans person be an ambassador and forever ask nicely for the right to exist and be treated as a human being worthy of respect.

Do trans men have claim on spaces reserved for those who experienced femaleness under the patriarchy? Absolutely, if they want to. Do they have claim on spaces reserved for those who experienced boyhood under the patriarchy? That's complex; arguably, most of the world already is this space, and the thought of excluding anyone just makes my stomach turn.

If my presence ever made anyone uncomfortable, I'd remove myself from that situation as a point of principle. I'm in a situation where that has never, to my knowledge, happened - with one significant exception! Many years ago when I was 17 or so, I cheekily nipped into the men's toilet at a concert. I had a very skewed perception of my own passability at this point; when my presence drew comment, I realised it wasn't because I was being read as trans; it was because I was being read as female, and it wasn't the usual expected hostility; it was fear and discomfort over a safe space being invaded.

I've had a healthy awareness of the discomfort of others since then, and a crushing fear of being percieved as a hostile, invading, unwelcome presence in, well, any space really. Really did a number on me for a while, until my mother, sister and a bunch of school friends all told me I was being ridiculous and nobody cares, let alone even realises there might even be something to even care about.

Equally, though, even after being told many, many times that it's ridiculous internalised transmisogyny I need to get the heck over, other people's discomfort always has right of way.

Anyway, that's quite enough of that. Hopefully this has been useful for someone. We certainly need more open, frank discussion of this stuff and less echo chamber tribalism that perpetually pitches feminists against one another in a depressingly effective example of divide and conquer in action.

CharlieParley · 21/09/2021 02:03

We're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to desistence. Blockers don't cause kids to become trans - that's a frankly perplexing chicken-and-egg conflation, and I'm honestly not quite sure how you get there logically without deciding on a destination and working your way back

You might be barking up the wrong tree, I am not. I did not say blockers cause kids to become trans.

The medical experts treating children who are diagnosed with gender dysphoria in early childhood have noted that puberty is the time when most of these children reconcile body and mind. The children come to terms with the sex they are - they desist.

In terms of statistics, of that cohort, those who come through puberty and still continue to persist are very likely indeed to grow up into transsexual adults.

But the majority for whom puberty is the watershed moment, grow up to be gender-non-conforming adults, often homosexual or bisexual and/or neuro-divergent adults.

Puberty blockers do not cause the development of gender dysphoria, they merely prevent it from being resolved in those who would have desisted without them.

This isn't new, it's a well known phenomenon, documented by those who applied and researched the Watchful Waiting approach.

The entire notion that they're some kind of magical transing juice betrays a worldview that disregards people's stated experiences - not to mention that Kiera Bell's own story flies in the face of this hypothesis anyway.

Keira's story tells us precisely nothing about the effect of puberty blockers on children diagnosed with gender dysphoria in early childhood, because she developed gender dysphoria in her mid-teens. Most girls finish puberty by age 14, Keira was diagnosed at age 15. What came before was a gender-non-conforming child with a difficult childhood, who would turn out to be lesbian (early gender-non-conformity is a much stronger indicator of homosexuality than transsexualism). But she had no good role models and no understanding of lesbianism. She was severely depressed and isolated from her peers. She hated the changes puberty had wrought on her body. That, together with her preference for masculine-coded things and attraction to girls led her to believe she was a boy.

Giving puberty blockers at that age does not serve to block puberty anymore, it simply blocks her natural hormones from finishing their job. That can have many of the same detrimental effects regarding bone mineral density and cognitive development, which continues until at least 25, and it can exacerbate depression (a known side-effect of puberty blockers are crippling mental health issues, severe depression and suicidality).

So no, Keira's story does not disprove that puberty blockers prevent desistance. She took them long after desistance occurs in the early childhood cohort.

NCBlossom · 21/09/2021 02:13

Children have to be safeguarded.

That is number one for me.

Children are particularly impressionable and vulnerable. They are not snowflakes, but their minds are forming, their identity, their sense of self. In short, they are still growing!

All this takes time, it is supposed to take time. It is natural.

So anything which forces an identity, a decision, to alter irrevocably aspects of their growing when they are a child is fundamentally wrong and fundamentally abusive by any adults which enable it. And the intensity and hysteria around pushing this is extremely harmful for children.

Keira is very brave and I admire her a lot.

rabbitwoman · 21/09/2021 06:50

I have read your posts, butterflyhatched and I think it's unfair you are getting some hostility here.... It is a good thing that your experiences are positive, in fact, that's all anyone would wish for someone taking this difficult journey, surely!?

(and your experiences of being hit on don't sound like fantasy, I can relate and I am no supermodel..... Anyway.....)

I think that the reason there is a handful of prickly responses though is because of the nature of this debate thus far, and we have not been able to have it! I am sure you are familiar with the horrible, aggressive tactics of that faction of society who would silence us and strongly dissuade anyone from even asking these questions.

I honestly would not mind if a cohort of children were on these drugs and it was right for them and it worked! If every trans person had your story and your outcome, we'll, who would mind? But it does not seem to be the case and we ARE NOT ALLOWED to talk about why...

Why is there a sudden boom of young girls wanting these medical procedures?

How many of them DO desist? We have no idea. And it may be a minority.... But is it 40%? 15%? No one knows and we are not allowed to ask.

I also really appreciate what you have said about respecting women's spaces, but surely you have noticed so many trans women (or as I rather suspect, men who are claiming to be trans for nefarious reasons!) who are - in effect - ruining it for you!! In my view, this has never and should never be about trans women and how they live their lives, but about the abusive men who claim your identies. AND WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO EVEN TALK ABOUT IT!!

Anyway, thank you for talking to us.... I hope we can all come through this with a better understanding of your needs without sacrificing our own....

Helleofabore · 21/09/2021 07:46

I am glad that you have found happiness Butterfly. You have at least engaged positively which is unusual compared to some posters, although you have mentioned how you were expecting ‘hostility’? Perhaps that has to do more with your choice of source material you have read to form that view than the truth.

I do think you have touched on the ways these drugs affect female transitioners, and I understand that you feel conflicted that in acknowledging the higher health risks females have, you feel you would be denying them something you had. Yet, you don’t seem able to even acknowledge these health risks. Perhaps you don’t actually know what they are and just assumed it was the same for females as it is for males.

But the facts are facts unfortunately. There is a current cohort of young females caught up in this that have been significantly let down by lack of research, or even tracking of patient progress. There are young female teenagers going through extreme menopausal symptoms with so much ongoing pain, celebrating it as a badge of progress. The brittle bones that will cause issues all through life and will never been able to be remedied, yet, males don’t get this symptom anywhere near to this degree either. There are many more. And that is just puberty blockers.

Detransitioners are honest about the effects wrought on their bodies from testosterone, and surgical issues. And report the amount of pressure applied when they were still transitioned to downplay or ignore those side effects.

And too few are fighting to ensure that the treatments being offered to these young females are the best for them. And those few are continually attacked.

It is like female transitioners do not deserve to have their needs acknowledged, to received the tailored care they need. It is all about the males.

The continued lack of acknowledgment is the same old, same old. Really it is.

NecessaryScene · 21/09/2021 07:56

I honestly would not mind if a cohort of children were on these drugs and it was right for them and it worked!

Indeed - I feel the same.

If I thought there was a genuine condition here that the potential harm of not treating early outweighed the risks of doing so - and there was evidence to back that up, I would not be objecting to the treatment.

But merely "there is a non-zero number of individuals who did this and don't regret it and have had no major complications (yet)" is not remotely sufficient. Even they don't know what the alternative would have turned out like in their case.

And the total incuriousity - and often outright lies - about the efficacy and need of what's being done here is pretty much enough to convince me there will never be good evidence. Even the people pushing it don't really believe in it, or they'd be gladly doing all the follow-up studies, not blocking them.

Helleofabore · 21/09/2021 08:27

And then we have this

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ff0b02b0-1a5d-11ec-8d6d-67649e90fafa?shareToken=7cc2d565aefbf1b22d9c61dab8cf5ca0

I am horrified how this will be minimised by activists. How the fuck is it ok for girls to be referred to surgery for mastectomies under 18?

Feelingoktoday · 21/09/2021 08:55

They won’t have even finished developing. Very very sad. I hated my breasts when I was 18. Hid them. They drew too much attention. I like them now at 56.