The GC what now? Are we the cult?

[Anotheruser02]

Twice in the last week or so I've read TRA posts on twitter saying GC fems are a cult. Despite the fact the movement begs for debate and sunlight. No secrecy or pushing for kids to hold secrets from their families.
Is this the latest in "I know you are but what am I" or has this been a claim all along and I haven't noticed?

[Barheim]

When you talk about children "being trans", which of these descriptions do you think best fits them @Barheim?

When I talk about 'children being trans', I talk about children who list themselves as trans who call and have to deal with some unlicensed therapist who can 'cure' them from it. I've no interest in your 'descriptions'.

Barheim, your post is an excellent example of proganda, not unlike what totalitarian societies produce. Just enough words that link to the other side's position but in the completely wrong order. Making it exhausting to dispute but enough to smear and frustrate. Really well done.

Of course it is, because anything you don't like is 'propaganda that misrepresent us'.

Can I just advice not to use the word 'transes' to refer to transwomen? You do it to ridicule us but it jars the reader out of the your arguments and by mocking yourself, it shows you mock us and then stops people taking your further words seriously.

I used 'transes' because gender critical people go after all trans people. Trans men are ridiculed, mocked, infantalized, you're obsessed with our wombs, breasts and sex lives to the point you repeatedly sexually harass us and others who we may be intimately involved with for existing, because repeatedly jabbing at gay men if they want to eat pussy (even if it has zero basis on our sex lives) is a perfectly normal and feminist thing to do. Non-binary people can't catch a break because you don't give a shit that Eddie Izzard, to name one, isn't a trans woman, she's genderfluid, you treat them like whatever works in your benefit at the moment, and otherwise you deride them for their appearance, for their assumed body, as if their entire existence is a performance art meant to titillate you.

It must not be a very good cult if it can’t convert someone spending days here obsessively reading grin

I'm trans, am fully aware what the majority of you think of people of my demographic, and know the topics of discussion when you think no one else is reading.

I also haven't spent more than maybe a handful of hours here and that's solely because I'm hoping at least one of you isn't sucked into this ridiculous sell-your-own-home-for-the-cause-and-live-off-carbonara cult.

Transing away the gay is conversion therapy.
We sure do suck at it, then, considering that 77% of trans people, going by our gender, aren't straight.

How is putting coloured ribbons up illegal?
It'd be littering even before the 350 days of rain a year you get.

Imagine a word where misogyny is criminalised and certain terms are recognised as misogynistic slurs, and therefore inexcusable hate crime. You have tweeted something in anger about a prominent GC woman, say JK Rowling. You are arrested and charged with a criminal offence carrying a possible custodial sentence. Your friends and allies try to crowdfund for you or support you as they believe it is unfair but it keeps being shut down and people say "this person is charged with misogynistic hate crime, they don't deserve any assistance, and they must be guilty, or why would they have been charged?"

Ah, is this finally at least an admission that what your views are transphobic, as opposed to the continuous 'I'm not transphobic, I just think trans people should be lawfully segregated in society'?

I will not further discuss her court case as I'm unaware of the details of what is considered contempt of court.

[ArabellaScott]

Carbonara? Is that a known gc thing? Sounds kind of luxury, to me.

Barheim, honestly, you are coming across as defensive and aggressive, here. I think you are US based, yes? Consider that at least half of your arguments don't translate at all for UK women.

When you mention Cathy Brennan, for example, you'll be talking probably about the US feminist, yes?

To a UK feminist, we are quite likely to think of the transwoman who has named themself Cathy Brennan and who assaulted Julie Bindel.

[ArabellaScott]

I would like to talk to you on a level field. To do so, you'd need to just calm down a bit and we'd both need to presume good faith. You sound hostile and angry, to me. I'm sorry for that, but I can't help you with your feelings.

[ArabellaScott]

And you'd need to acknowledge that this is a UK forum, mostly UK women, who have very different cultural, social and historical histories to yourself.

[RedToothBrush]

I will not further discuss her court case as I'm unaware of the details of what is considered contempt of court

By god are you well informed... Try google.

Whispers - its not that type of court case. No one is on trial and its pretty damn public

[Barheim]

I am calm. I'm also hostile, but given you're busy in campaigns to take away my dignity and human rights, deal with it.

[Waitwhat23]

I used 'transes' because gender critical people go after all trans people.

You're not posting in good faith and your hyperbole is ridiculous. This is the problem with this whole debate. There's no discussion or recognition that there might be conflicting rights. Just the usual hyperbole and overblown nonsense.

And I take it this is a 'sly' dig at Scottish people? 'It'd be littering even before the 350 days of rain a year you get.' Do get a grip.

[RedToothBrush]

If you want to comment of British political issues it helps to know about the differences between British and American culture, their political systems and legal systems and traditions of political protest.

And have a general clue about how to find things out from places other than 'someone told me on reddit'.

I know research is a little taxing on the brain but its worth while. Thinking has had bad pr lately but i can assure you that those of us in the embroidery aisle heartly recommend it.

[Sophoclesthefox]

when you think no one else is reading

Arf. Perfectly aware that this place is heavily monitored and users are targeted.

When has a gender critical feminist sexually harassed a trans man? And why?

[RedToothBrush]

Google is a wonderful thing really.

[ArabellaScott]

Barheim has a point about the rain. I will concede that point.

[sanluca]

Ah, is this finally at least an admission that what your views are transphobic, as opposed to the continuous 'I'm not transphobic, I just think trans people should be lawfully segregated in society'?

Propaganda: information of a biased and misleading nature used to promote a political view.

Admission of transphobia: that wasn't stated. The statement was how would you view it is someone would be charged with hate speech for misogyny. Nowhere is there an admission that the person that is currently accused of transphobia is guilty of that accusation, but by framing it as the admission it isn't, you can accuse people again of being the bad ones.

Trans people lawfully segregated: that is not what is stated. Where there is sex segregation we want that sex segregation to stand regardless of someone's gender reassignment status. So trans people fully part of society with no extra rights or privileges.

Propaganda.

[Jaysmith71]

The case is active and therefore subject to sub-judice.

You can mention the name of the accused, and the charges, but not the names of the allegedly injured parties, the actor and the police officer. Nor can you say that MM is guilty/not guilty or comment on the veracity or otherwise of the parties.

[ArabellaScott]

[sanluca]

@Barheim

I am calm. I'm also hostile, but given you're busy in campaigns to take away my dignity and human rights, deal with it.

We are objecting to you taking privileges that no other man has. You are not special. You are a human being with standard human rights. Just like women are as well. Your wants do not override our needs.

[Helleofabore]

I am finding it funny that posters have chosen Posie as leader. Really?

The fact that there is no group and no individual that stands out to speak for all is a sure sign that there is no cult.

Kellie-Jay is soundly denounced by many while being applauded by others. I admire her, but I find some of the way she expresses her opinions to be affected by her platform of speaking from the hip unscripted and not clear. And some of her opinions I completely disagree with. Do I think she is a leader of our alleged cult, no way?

So if you cannot find a person or group who has positioned themselves to speak for all, just acknowledge that there is none and your justification is full so full of holes and spin it could be a salad spinner.

[Sophoclesthefox]

@Barheim

I am calm. I'm also hostile, but given you're busy in campaigns to take away my dignity and human rights, deal with it.

Nobody is doing this. Don’t be daft.

Also, how can a group of users discussing feminism on a UK site “take away your dignity”? How does one person take someone else’s dignity from thousands of miles away behind a computer screen?

Users here are happy to talk to you, like arabella said, but it’s off to a bad start with the vast swathes of misrepresentation in your posts (did you know, by the way that “sweeping generalisations” are against forum rules? Nobody will report you, I wouldn’t think, but it’s good to acknowledge privilege, isn’t it? And you are being afforded privilege here, make no mistake. A gender critical poster posting as aggressively as you are would expect to be deleted).

[Ekofisk]

@ArabellaScott

Barheim has a point about the rain. I will concede that point.

Still only 170 rainy days a year in Glasgow.

It just feels like 350.

[ArabellaScott]

@Barheim

I am calm. I'm also hostile, but given you're busy in campaigns to take away my dignity and human rights, deal with it.

Hostile, yes, I got that. It's a shame, Barheim. When are we going to get to the point that we can all live together?

How the fuck would a UK woman be campaigning to take away your dignity and human rights?

You are the owner of your dignity. I have neither the power, ability nor desire to have anything to do with your dignity, but I would suggest it is not very strong if you're so willing to hand that away to some stranger on the internet.

As for human rights - the day I move to the US and get voting rights is ... well, it's not going to happen. What is it you want from UK feminists? Why are you here? I am asking that in good faith, btw, I am not hostile. Just a bit tired.

[RedToothBrush]

@ArabellaScott

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/lifestyle/scotlands-rainiest-cities-unveiled-glasgow-23606616

Don't move to Cardiff.

[OldCrone]

When I talk about 'children being trans', I talk about children who list themselves as trans who call and have to deal with some unlicensed therapist who can 'cure' them from it. I've no interest in your 'descriptions'.

Thanks for replying @Barheim, but I still don't understand what sort of children you are talking about. Now you say 'children who list themselves as trans'. What does this mean? Who are these children and what makes them 'list themselves as trans'? You say it is none of the categories listed in my previous post, but you don't say what it is that makes them identify as transgender.

In my earlier post I quoted a gender dysphoria website which listed 5 possible reasons for people (not just children) identifying as transgender. You say it is none of those. As my earlier post is now way back in the thread I'll repeat what the 5 categories were:

1. Autogynephilia
   
2. Internalised homophobia
   
3. Concrete thinking processes (often in people on the autistic spectrum)
   
4. Sexual trauma
   
5. Conflation of sex and gender (dislike of stereotypes)
   

You have said you believe it is none of these. In that case, what makes a child 'trans'? What is it you think a therapist might be trying to 'cure'?

[ArabellaScott]

To be honest, Eko



I like the rain.

[MidsomerMurmurs]

@Barheim We sure do suck at it, then, considering that 77% of trans people, going by our gender, aren't straight

That really, really, sounds homophobic, doesn't it? Is it acceptable for heterosexual people to appropriate lesbian or gay status?

"Going by our gender" but also

[Helleofabore]

When I talk about 'children being trans', I talk about children who list themselves as trans who call and have to deal with some unlicensed therapist who can 'cure' them from it. I've no interest in your 'descriptions'.

I have never seen a MNer support any unlicensed therapist treating a child or young person or anyone. You have been reading these threads long enough, so if you have seen this, please do point it out.

Or are you referring to the fact that many of us want the best health for our children and young people and if that means finding qualified health professionals who don’t follow the affirming only treatment plan advocated by some, that we are trying to ‘cure’ them.

Do you fully believe that every child that ‘lists’ themselves as trans need affirming only treatment or is there just cause to discover and treat all underlying issues as well. Even if that might mean that young person’s discomfort resolves itself (or does that mean they were never trans even though they ‘listed’ themselves as trans)?

[Sophoclesthefox]

I would suggest it is not very strong if you're so willing to hand that away to some stranger on the internet.


Interesting point, arabella.

barheim, I expect that somewhere in the core of your beliefs is the desire and expectation that other people must share your own view of yourself- that they ought to validate you, endorse your sense of self and your identity as true and authentic- in order that you can live your life happily.

That’s quite a lot of power to give to other people, isn’t it? Don’t you think that a really happy, stable sense of self is built from within?

It’s brought you to the point of coming to a board that you think is hostile to your beliefs in order to berate the users there for not sharing your exact view of the world. It’s not reasonable or rational to expect everyone to share your beliefs, and good societies aren’t built by everyone thinking exactly they same- we really do need diversity.

In your opinion, would their be a way to disagree with your conception of being trans that would be legitimate?