Explaining to 11 year old why Karen is a slur

[amter]

So DD, 11 (and now DS 9) have come across the term Karen. They were telling me it is a funny way of describing someone (a woman) who reacts badly or is wrong. I think DD picked it up on youtube or somehow with her new mobile phone she received for secondary school.

I know that to me Karen feels like it targets middle aged women and puts them down regardless of what the situation is, it feels to me like a slur, putting women in their place. I'm not sure how to explain it though, especially in a way they will understand.

I told them that I don't like hearing that name and I find it offensive, I could almost hear their eyes roll and they were trying to tell me I just don't get it.

Any help appreciated :)

Thanks all, sorry was on school/sports run :)

"It's a way of shutting down debate and dismissing women" This feels a simple way of explaining it thanks so much.

Although I know they will ask how/why and that is harder to explain. I think I will end up down a long path of women not having a voice, men silencing women throughout history. This is the new socially acceptable way of doing it?

Whatever its origins, many now define a 'Karen' as 'the sort of woman who wants to speak to the manager' when something is wrong.

That was the origin. A man on Reddit started it to whine about his ex. The apparent race element came more recently.

Ask him - if I bought you some sports gear, and I found it was faulty in some way and then had to take it back the shop, how would you feel if they muttered that I was 'A Karen' under their breaths and were sniggering? Because that's exactly how it's being used against women on a grand scale.

Calling anyone a name to make fun of them is pretty much a slur. In the neighbourhood I grew up in, we all had unique slurs for the other kids, some of which now seem quite non-PC, but others were things like round-head (not political/religious but because he actually had a round head.) It was still a slur though.

I'd be telling my kids that if they are calling people names, it's going to be offensive, because they wouldn't do it if it wasn't intended to be so. So they are doing something disrespectful and hurtful.

Like all kids I imagine they'll still do it buy the basic lesson should stick.

I known it's a guardian article but here's an article by Hadley Freeman about "Karen"...

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/13/the-karen-meme-is-everywhere-and-it-has-become-mired-in-sexism

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/apr/13/the-karen-meme-is-everywhere-and-it-has-become-mired-in-sexism?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Sorry. Phone went post happy there .. 🤦🏼‍♀️

Just start using their names as a general insult.

He’s such a David
Oh-oh - call the manager, David!
Lord, you are being such a da-vid
Shut up, David

@Orangesarenottheonlyfruit

When explaining this to my dd I think I may have bored her to death. I started rambling about the conflict between suffragettes in the US and anti slavers in the 1920s being the basis of White privileged woman vs Black man in American media and how this has ricocheted today. She's terrified to say Karen again in case I begin another ramble on the topic!

TBF I'd actually like to hear your ramblings 😂 sounds like an interesting conversation!

@Shelddd

It's not just sexist, it's also racist. As only a white woman can be a Karen.

Careful, reach much further and you'll fall off that horse.

@Anotheruser02

Maybe explain it in a way like, what if it was directed at secondary age kids, what if a quick way to shut down an 11 year old with a genuine grievance was to say "she's just being an Amelia" therefore their problem obviously isn't a real problem and doesn't deserve being heard, Amelia's obviously don't know real problems and their thoughts are just stupid so they should shut up because it's inconvenient for any of us real people to listen to. At best their reaction to being upset and ignored is mildly amusing to someone watching.

This is really clever

WiSpa woman was called a Karen. It’s just a general anti woman slur these days.

Shelddd

It's not just sexist, it's also racist. As only a white woman can be a Karen.

Huh? I'm a Karen (and white), I know two others neither of them are white.
Keep thinking I should change my MN name to KarenandProud, but in real life I just want to change my name altogether.

SusannaM, me too, I feel almost embarrassed when I get asked my name these days. It sucks to be a real Karen right now.

@Positivelypatient

Grim isn't it, I've been sniggered at a few times when I've had to say my name. I don't even have the usual pronunciation either.

[quote Theoldprospector]Get them to type their own name into this:

karenismyname.org/renamer[/quote]
I'm sorry but that's so funny. Do you think people with Manson as a surname assume people are talking about them when talking about Charles Manson? Do people called Jared avoid subway so they don't get mistaken for that one?
If you're called Karen, people aren't talking about you!
It's someone who is entitled, self serving and rude. I've seen it used on both men and women.
Isn't there more pressing issues to worry about? How does this honestly impact your life?

It’s a pathetic ‘shut down’ though isn’t it? No reasoned debate or explanation. You are ‘Karen’ and therefore have no right to an opinion or a voice. It’s just sucky.

Hey! That guy just...
Shut up you Karen!
No I’m just pointing out that...
Karen!
Look - that guy over there is...
Karen - wanna speak to the manager, Ka-rennnnnn!
He just...
KAREN! Ooooo Karen!

@KittenKong

It’s a pathetic ‘shut down’ though isn’t it? No reasoned debate or explanation. You are ‘Karen’ and therefore have no right to an opinion or a voice. It’s just sucky.

Hey! That guy just...
Shut up you Karen!
No I’m just pointing out that...
Karen!
Look - that guy over there is...
Karen - wanna speak to the manager, Ka-rennnnnn!
He just...
KAREN! Ooooo Karen!

Only in the same way calling someone an idiot is. I think all name calling is bad in the context of a debate, it does nothing to help the other side engage with you and makes them defensive, but most of the people using it are just saying it on social media. Whether it should be used in headlines or media is another conversation.

More nuance is needed, though I think that with all debates really!

It’s quite loaded though. Point and laugh at the Karen. Karen is an absolutely stupid, racist bigot. She is a women of a certain age (and that alone means she doesn’t matter anyway). She is white (although WiSpa woman was called out for being a Karen). She is stupid. She tries to get people fired. She is an embarrassment. She is to be treated with contempt and shut down immediately

I'm sorry but that's so funny. Do you think people with Manson as a surname assume people are talking about them when talking about Charles Manson? Do people called Jared avoid subway so they don't get mistaken for that one?
If you're called Karen, people aren't talking about you!
It's someone who is entitled, self serving and rude. I've seen it used on both men and women.

It's nice that you are amused, it's always good to laugh at things someone else finds upsetting.

Manson isn't an insult, there's no logic there. And absolutely no idea what you are on about with Jared and subway, are we talking underground railways or sandwiches?

I've spent the last couple of years thinking the Karen insult is some daft internet incel/mysogynistic thing, and best ignored. Unfortunately not very successfully, as other people do think it's hilarious to make the connection with people who are actually called Karen.

"That white people are not victims or persecution for being white."

A lot of black people refuse to use it. They say it's now used too often by privileged white men against women.

@SusannaM

I'm sorry but that's so funny. Do you think people with Manson as a surname assume people are talking about them when talking about Charles Manson? Do people called Jared avoid subway so they don't get mistaken for that one? If you're called Karen, people aren't talking about you! It's someone who is entitled, self serving and rude. I've seen it used on both men and women.

It's nice that you are amused, it's always good to laugh at things someone else finds upsetting.

Manson isn't an insult, there's no logic there. And absolutely no idea what you are on about with Jared and subway, are we talking underground railways or sandwiches?

I've spent the last couple of years thinking the Karen insult is some daft internet incel/mysogynistic thing, and best ignored. Unfortunately not very successfully, as other people do think it's hilarious to make the connection with people who are actually called Karen.

The posts on that website are, to me, funny with my name in them. I know it's not about me. That was my point. Jared Fogle was 'the subway guy' mid 2000s, ate subway everyday and lost loads of weight and featured in loads of ads. Came out around the same time as Supersize Me (that has its own problems) so subway branded themselves as 'healthy' fast food. He was commonly referred to as Jared from Subway. Then 2015 (I think?) he went to court and is now in prison for child porn charges. My point being you wouldn't want to be associated with that, but you know it's not about you! Anything can be used as an insult really

On one social media app I have one account with a feminine username. I was talking to some dude (typical entitled, privileged dude progressive educated type dude) and quelle surprise, at some point he throws the Karen out. And he isn't even anglo-saxon. I think that says it all.

There may be a basis of entitlement in its origin (but even that is sexist because there is no male equivalent) but it has gone way beyond that.