Other forums and women's safe spaces.

[andyoldlabour]

I have been contributing on another forum, which linked to the Wiltshire PCC who criticised Stonewall's stance on women's safe spaces. In the opening post this link was used.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-58498833

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=205&t=1950840

I then started to look for other forums where this subject was discussed in an open way and found "The Student Room". One young girl was discussing how she (and fellow girl pupils) felt uncomfortable that they had to change with a pre transition transgirl. Whilst quite a few seemed to agree with her (which was heartening), some seemed to have the view that she should just get used to it, because the transgirl would be feeling uncomfortable as well.
I get the feeling that it is not just the "Vipers" of MN and far right Christian extremists who are not happy with this situation

www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6309130

Whilst you don't mean it maliciously or to be at all hurtful, getting changed in a cubicle could really contribute to her sense of isolation which can have major effects on someone's mental health.
From the Student Room thread.

It’s the duty of teenage girls to get naked in front of penis-havers so the penis-haver feels ‘validated’.

aliasundercover

That is exactly how I understood it.
I wonder why we never hear about the transboys getting changed in the boys changing room?

Funny how women and girls are placed in the position of "support humans" being responsible for the wellbeing of every sad random male who now self identifies as a woman. And it looks as if these are school children so that's enforcing female oppression and lack of boundaries from a very young age.

It's definitely not just MN. I was recently discussing with a close friend and colleague (female) yesterday. She can see how wrong it all is. Anyone with half a brain can. Just ask them The Staniland Question:

@aliasundercover

Whilst you don't mean it maliciously or to be at all hurtful, getting changed in a cubicle could really contribute to her sense of isolation which can have major effects on someone's mental health. From the Student Room thread.

It’s the duty of teenage girls to get naked in front of penis-havers so the penis-haver feels ‘validated’.

That always seems such a bizarre point of view. I go to a gym where the changing room is largely communal with a handful of cubicles. Nobody even notices if someone uses tbe cubicles or not. If someone is offended that you choose to undress in a cubicle rather than in the open area thats their problem not yours as well as a massive red flag.

I just find this whole "validation" thing infantalising and quite frankly tedious.

I use LSA too and I find it hilarious that some TAs will say black women are perfectly fine with all this including being compared to feminine presenting males. Its just not true.

That was an interesting read, the studentroom discussion. Coz the young are meant to be on board with all this, happily cheerleading. And yet, so many young women saying this makes them incredibly uncomfortable, which strongly suggests they're neither happy about nor cheerleading the loss of single-sex spaces.

They are however too scared to express their discomfort, and if they overcome that fear, lack the knowledge of their own rights and so are easily dismissed by those in charge.

There was a clearly expressed topic: sharing a female-only space with a male-bodied person makes these young female students uncomfortable, some are seeking forgiveness for that feeling, yes, but all still thinking that they are not wrong to feel that way.

The extremist talking points would have been laughably easy to refute. Shame there were few people with the interest/time/inclination/knowledge. Still some good comments from students refusing to subjugate themselves.

I found that encouraging to see. (I mean I know from my own kids that not all of them go for this stuff, but it's always good to see how many don't agree.)

Funny how women and girls are placed in the position of "support humans" being responsible for the wellbeing of every sad random male who now self identifies as a woman. And it looks as if these are school children so that's enforcing female oppression and lack of boundaries from a very young age.

This. And it really is about "he will be really sad if..."
Since when are women and girls responsible for ensuring every man is happy?

@aliasundercover

Whilst you don't mean it maliciously or to be at all hurtful, getting changed in a cubicle could really contribute to her sense of isolation which can have major effects on someone's mental health. From the Student Room thread.

It’s the duty of teenage girls to get naked in front of penis-havers so the penis-haver feels ‘validated’.

Yep: time and effort and attention and care from women is a public resource for a government or a society to deploy, like wifi or heat or shelter or electricity. Fuck any actual woman who may be busy with something else, as we generally assume a man would be.

@aliasundercover

Whilst you don't mean it maliciously or to be at all hurtful, getting changed in a cubicle could really contribute to her sense of isolation which can have major effects on someone's mental health. From the Student Room thread.

It’s the duty of teenage girls to get naked in front of penis-havers so the penis-haver feels ‘validated’.

In effect, making it a social duty of young female people to validate a male person with their body. This is the truth of it.

Since when is it ok to require female people to do this for the benefit of males? When did we decide as a society that male people mattered in ways that those born female just don't? That we have the served and the servers, and you're classed by the biology you were born with?

Except at the same time you're supposed to say that sex was just assigned at birth and no one knows what sex anyone is anyway.

Just no thank you.

It's nice to know there are some other pockets of sanity. I wonder what it is about Mumsnet specifically that so attracts the ire of the TRAs?

Would you rather shout at a scary, actually violent man, or a bunch of naice wummin?

We're just a soft target. A straw bogey-(wo)man, to make a rather odd mixed metaphor.

Helen Joyce might have the answer to why Mumsnet is so targeted:

From her book Trans

"In Galileo’s Middle Finger, Dreger offers another insight: since autogynephilia involves a fantasy of truly becoming, or already being, a woman, any reference to it can be experienced as an insult. “There’s a critical difference between autogynephilia and most other sexual orientations: most other orientations aren’t erotically disrupted simply by being labelled,” she writes. “When you call a typical gay man homosexual, you’re not disturbing his sexual hopes and desires. By contrast, autogynephilia is perhaps best understood as a love that would really rather we didn’t speak its name.”

"This explains why such rage is mostly directed at women, even though it is men who commit almost all anti-trans harassment and violence. Blanchard’s observations of extremist trans activism in recent years have led him to believe that the leaders are mostly autogynephiles. Their anger results from “envy of women and resentment at not being accepted by women as one of them,” he has tweeted. “They direct their ire at women because it is women who frustrate their desires. Men are largely irrelevant.”

@andyoldlabour

aliasundercover

That is exactly how I understood it.
I wonder why we never hear about the transboys getting changed in the boys changing room?

Wasn't there a case in the US a couple of years ago where a male PE teacher lost his job for refusing to supervise the showers and changing rooms with transboys getting changed?

He argued that they were underage biological females and that he should not be watching them in the showers or undressing. And that he had to specifically do this as part of his job to prevent bullying in the changing rooms. He refused, so got fired for it, because trans boys are boys. I was hoping to see an appeal or update or something but not heard anything about it since.

oh I enjoyed that student room thread. some brilliant young women holding fast to the facts. also this:

people referring to this person as a man/he is fragrantly transphobic

nowwhat50

"Wasn't there a case in the US a couple of years ago where a male PE teacher lost his job for refusing to supervise the showers and changing rooms with transboys getting changed?"

There was, the same time as I joined this forum (the only place where I could get sane and reasoned answers about this whole thing).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3404825-Male-teacher-fired-for-refusing-to-supervise-a-boys-locker-room-where-an-FTM-was-showering

nowwhat50

The same thing happened with the shower incident as happened at WiSpa. The incident was initially put down as a right wing hoax, because it was only publicised in "right wing" media. However, we are all aware that the left wing media doesn't cover these incidents, or tries to rubbish them, as happened in the Guardian.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9644479/Virginia-gym-teacher-sues-school-suspending-refuses-use-trans-kids-pronouns.html

www.intomore.com/impact/a-florida-gym-teacher-refuses-to-support-a-trans-middle-schooler-using-the-boys-locker-room/

politicalhotwire.com/threads/male-teacher-fired-for-refusing-to-watch-biological-girl-student-shower.202354/

dailycaller.com/2018/11/15/male-gym-teacher-punished-shower/