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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hilary mantel backs JKR

50 replies

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/09/2021 08:07

Towards the end www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/04/hilary-mantel-i-am-ashamed-to-live-in-nation-that-elected-this-government

OP posts:
SnoopyLights · 04/09/2021 12:05

@SimonedeBeauvoirscat

Thank you for the full link to her comments. She has expressed some of how I feel about women and womanhood.

Thank you Hillary Mantel for deciding to speak out. I would have been very interested to read the paper you almost wrote and I hope you still do write it.

Interviewer: From the point of view of a woman, what’s your opinion on the TERF-accusations against your colleague JK Rowling? I recently interviewed Margaret Atwood and she defended her. What’s your opinion about all this?

HM: "I have never met JK Rowling, but I know her to be a woman who has brought much pleasure and done much good. I think the attacks on her were unjustified and shameful. It is barbaric that a tiny minority should take command of public discourse and terrify those who disagree with them."

"I recently found myself ‘misgendered.’ I received a university publication, with news items relating to alumni, where I was referred to as ‘they,’ not ‘she.’ My books were ‘their books.’ I wasn’t singled out – the other alumni were similarly treated."

"I thought, ‘Being a woman means a lot to me. My sense of it has been tested. I have thought deeply about it. I value it, even though it has meant struggle and pain. I do not want my womanhood confiscated in print. It is not right to deprive an individual of identity on a whim, and make him or her into something neuter, plural. I have not given my consent to become a grammatical error."

"I almost wrote to protest. But my husband said, ‘It’s a fad. It will pass.’ I think he’s probably right, and the controversy will become a footnote in cultural history."

Nimora · 04/09/2021 12:11

Oh thank fuck. I don't think I could have coped if the glorious HM had capitulated to gender identity nonsense.

NotTerfNorCis · 04/09/2021 12:38

It's interesting how pronouns are evolving. Back in the eighties, it was still quite normal to say 'he' in an abstract sense, to cover both sexes:

'If someone wants to drive, he has to have a driving licence.'

Then 'they' became widespread (although not everyone was happy!):

'If someone wants to drive, they have to have a driving licence.'

But now, 'they' is being used for people whose sex is known:

'If one of the girls wants to learn to drive, they'll need a licence.'

And even more bizarrely for named individuals:

'If Sarah wants to learn to drive, they'll need a licence.'

It's like someone's sex is too distasteful to mention.

FreezerBird · 04/09/2021 12:48

Oh I could dance! I've always hoped that HM would come out and say something on this. As pp have said she has written so incisively on the physical reality of womanhood. She is awesome.

I wish I was as optimistic as she is about this passing as a cultural fad.

LargeBouquet · 04/09/2021 13:49

@SimonedeBeauvoirscat

Yes good point! She was asked outright as part of a very wideranging interview.
And frankly, as a woman, she's involved, anyway -- she doesn't need the excuse of responding to a specific question in an interview.
Snoozer11 · 04/09/2021 13:49

@NotTerfNorCis I have some course notes by BPP which still use 'he' when referring to an abstract person, which threw me. Although I don't know if they are the words of BPP themselves.

I've always thought there was a tendency to avoid using 'she' in print even before the trans stuff. Probably to avoid those who'd ask about the cat's mother.

I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised my HM's stance. I fully expected her to be TWAW from the rest of her views displayed in the article. Goes to show you can still have a sensible grasp of reality no matter which way you lean politically. I think more people like HM speaking up will do the world of good.

NewMutiny · 04/09/2021 14:06

@MonsignorMirth

Are you thinking of Margaret Atwood, Pale?
I think the chip on Margaret Atwood's shoulder, which she uses the adulation of the Glitterati to smooth over, comes mostly from knowing that as a writer she's not fit to shine the boots of someone like Hilary Mantel.
IvyTwines2 · 04/09/2021 14:10

I've noticed that in articles on a female celeb who has said they're 'exploring their gender' but doesn't mind what pronouns are used, she or they, the article writers in so-called-left/youth-leaning papers nevertheless choose NOT to use she or her, as in this last week from the Independent: "Corrin added that deciding to speak out about their queerness online was “scary and revealing”, adding that they “wasn’t sure whether it was the right thing to do”. So, aside from the headline, which employs both their and her (and possibly not by the same writer as the body of the article), the piece uses 'they/their' throughout, even when that means using "they wasn't"! It's like they are seizing on this as an opportunity to strip away yet more femaleness from the public sphere, or further push the celebrity's public image into transing when the celeb herself is just exploring - see also the thread here on MN today on Angelina Jolie's daughter.

PicsInRed · 04/09/2021 14:11

Hilary Mantel is absolutely marvellous.

FlowerArranger · 04/09/2021 14:17

@rabbitwoman

Really beautiful words :

“I thought: ‘Being a woman means a lot to me. I do not want my womanhood confiscated in print.’”

Totally.

As for the Guardian's reference to her 'wading' into the 'controversy'........ the Guardian frankly has become a bit shit...

thirdfiddle · 04/09/2021 14:36

Ha, so someone decided to take things to the logical conclusion and refer to all the writers as 'they' in case they (plural) had not been asked about their gender identity in the last 5 minutes, or to future proof against future pronoun changes or something? Oddly, Mantel's response to that could almost word for word have been written by a gender advocate OR a gender critical person. Can't see either being particularly impressed by being 'they'd against their will.

Margaret Attwood defended Rowling? That's something at least.

Pleased to see another literary heavyweight responding with common sense.

EsmaCannonball · 04/09/2021 16:58

What's wrong with taking Irish citizenship? Citizenship isn't an innate quality. Most people have the, at least theoretical, right to become citizens of other countries or an automatic right through their parents.

MrsSteveMcDonald · 04/09/2021 17:21

I think it's because Ireland is full on gender woo and has self ID in place

EsmaCannonball · 04/09/2021 17:33

Oops, I see. I thought, mistakenly, that people might be implying hypocrisy.

beigebrownblue · 04/09/2021 17:35

Yes, I just read this too online,
it is hopeful.

I have these views too, am fifty seven and I am gradually growing into being an 'older' woman.

Jaysmith71 · 04/09/2021 17:41

@MrsSteveMcDonald

I think it's because Ireland is full on gender woo and has self ID in place
That's what I meant.

And I'm sure the tax situation for writers in ROI never crossed her mind.

LargeBouquet · 04/09/2021 17:43

@EsmaCannonball

Oops, I see. I thought, mistakenly, that people might be implying hypocrisy.
No, not at all, it's just that Ireland is actually currently in a worse state than the UK on what another poster terms 'gender woo' -- personally, I'd be delighted for HM to become an Irish citizen.
LargeBouquet · 04/09/2021 17:44

And yes to @Jaysmith71 Grin

Manderleyagain · 04/09/2021 19:49

I couldn't find the interview with Atwood where she defends Rowling. I googled the interviewer and Atwood but couldn't find anything that would fit the bill. Maybe that bit wasn't written up? Or am I being thick?

FreezerBird · 04/09/2021 19:58

I think Atwood signed a letter (also signed by JKR) condemning 'cancel culture'. I don't know what else she's said specifically about JKR.

But has also described herself as 'not the sort of feminist who thinks trans women are not women'. Or something.

SimonedeBeauvoirscat · 04/09/2021 20:07

I thought Atwood was problematic on this issue? Or have I missed something?

Cailleach1 · 04/09/2021 21:35

@Jaysmith71

"I do not want my womanhood confiscated in print.’”

But thinking of taking Irish Citizenship.

Who's going to tell her?

First thing that popped into my mind too. Still handy to have an EU passport, though. However, this new misogynistic ideology imported from the US, via Yogyakarta, has become the state religion. Sneaked in and imposed from the top down; to screw Irish women and girls. Again.

I don't think I've seen any groups in another country (in the supposedly developed world) who stated that women should have their political and media representation withdrawn. Amnesty Ireland and their buddies hate women with rights and an expectation of personal agency.

Cailleach1 · 04/09/2021 21:50

Joanna Cherry has Irish citizenship too. Think they both qualified through Irish descent. An asset to have strong, rational women as Irish citizens.

ChattyLion · 04/09/2021 23:09

Good on her! Grateful for every single truth-teller in public life. Keep going!

NotNowFGS · 05/09/2021 06:10

The University in question which made the grammatical error I think is my alma mater too, Sheffield. Employs Sally Hines so no surprise. Doubtless she will have something to say about HM when she returns from her current Twitter flounce.

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