Gender-free folk dancing?

[daringdoris]

I'm afraid I'm going to post and run as I have to dash to work now, but this has just come up on my fb feed:

www.efdss.org/about-us/what-we-do/news/10461-gender-free-calling-why-does-it-matter

Haven't read it properly (I will as soon as I can during the day!) to see what points it's making or whether I agree with them, but thought I'd share.

There isn't much/any? gender woo in my job/life/community. This is the first time I've seen this in a folky context (although I know how prevalent it is in the arts).

It probably makes sense tbh if you are dancing with a same sex partner for whatever reason.

All calling I have heard is sex and gender free anyway because you have no idea who will be where dancing with whom

So, “All the people who were in the first line with their backs to the windows when we started, form a star to the right" is simpler than 'women, star to the right'?

Why not just have 'cats and dogs' or 'sheep and goats' or 'suns and moons' if people are that bothered?

Seems perfectly responsible to me, it's 2021 after all. Lots of same sex couples out there.

@MagpiePi

So, “All the people who were in the first line with their backs to the windows when we started, form a star to the right" is simpler than 'women, star to the right'?

Why not just have 'cats and dogs' or 'sheep and goats' or 'suns and moons' if people are that bothered?

Many groups, especially in the USA, use Larks and Ravens.

Well women to the right causes no end of confusion if the group is all female

Backs to the stage to the right works

Sex doesn't matter in folk dancing ,so why try and make it?

I had a very long email home from School about this.
(Scottish High School: 'Social Dancing' mandatory, even until 6th form.
My ds (Dyspraxic) looks like Ron when he wears old dress robes)

The email tied itself in Gordian knots. It was well meaning but a mess.

Probably does make sense, actually. I think as long as the "titles" for each role are short enough then it shouldn't be a problem. I think it is a good point that it's not just the individual who's dancing the man/woman role who has to remember to change the instructions in their head, but also everyone else in their group as couples split and reform.

Usually, these dance roles are doing the same thing but at different times so it's not like it matters whether you have a man or woman doing whichever part.

Makes sense to me. Means you can still make sets even if you don't have exact numbers of men vs women, works in single-sex contexts etc etc.

Indeed the op is a case of an unnecessary gender restriction , there is no need for specific numbers of specific sexes for uncompetitive folk dancing .

I'm GC and very eye rolly about pronouns etc etc, but I don't think this idea is gender woo at all - it's an easy way to be inclusive of same sex couples and of trans people, and in no way puts anyone else out. I also think the article is really sensibly and clearly written. It seems a shame to flag something like this, which helps include all dancers and is genuinely no trouble for anyone to adopt, as an example of "gender woo".

It makes sense because people often dance with same sex partners at these events - there were men dancing with men, women with women and mixed, young and old at the one I attended 3 weeks back (and the men weren't couples, just friends I should add) was a real laugh! Better to say one the left, on the right because it really doesn't matter (and mixed couples might be swopped around too)

I should add I'm going to another next week with my (opposite sex) dp but I've gone with a female friend in the past and we danced together, it's just a non issue

I think makes sense, tbh. “Right hands, swing” or “leaders, turn” just creates nice clear binary 😁 groups of right/left or leaders/partners who can each follow their respective instructions before devolving into chaos and crashing into the band

Agree, this is really sensible. My experience of folk dancing is that no one bats an eyelid when a woman takes a male position; but I have only seen a man take a woman's position once, when he wanted to dance with his male partner, and there was some actual tutting. It was horrible. Much better to institute gender-free calling and let everyone dance in the position and with whom they like.

I don't know anything about folk dancing specifically, but my DD has done other forms of dancing all her life and is now a teacher. In my experience the ratio of female : male amateur dancers in most genres is huge so inevitably a lot of girls and women dance traditionally male roles. So this sounds like quite a sensible idea to me. Not because of gender ideology or anything, just because it reflects the reality that very often a dance couple is 2 females dancing together on an equal basis - nobody actually has to "be the boy".
I imagine many dance teachers etc do this intuitively, without it ever crossing their minds that it's any kind of gender issue. I know my DD gives her pupils different coloured ribbons to wear rather than telling them that they are dancing the "boy" or "girl" part. It's practicality, not political correctness and in fact is mainly to avoid the squeals of "Miss....I don't want to be the boy."

Honestly, I really like it. That is inclusive without obliterating anyone's rights or ignoring anyone's needs.

In tango and salsa they usually refer to "leaders and followers" rather than men and women. I like that too. Women can lead. Men can follow. Dance is just dance. That's the sort of gender neutral I would encourage. Genuinely blurring gender lines in matters that have nothing to do with the material reality of sex.
Folk dance is (I believe) usually communal, so makes even more sense.

It's not even about transgender people so not sure why you're equating it to 'gender-woo'. I'm a lesbian and would quite like to dance with my DP! It's not a big deal.

As someone who does a lot of called folk dancing with sets of people I really don't like gender free calling.

In the situations I dance in the man/woman positions had largely become markers for a position, and people could choose who to put in each place. That works really easily, as people are either listening for instructions that naturally apply to them or listening for the opposite, fairly small mental load.

The best gender free version I have come across is larks on the left (men in old money) and ravens on the right (previously women). Greater mental load but still doable.

Absolutely awful are instructions like "the line of people with their backs to the car park ...". I'm inside, fuck knows where the car park is now. Or "the people on the right take right hands with the person on the right opposite and turn then left with the other person etc etc" when experienced dancers can't work out what the instructions mean it's awful.

I folk dance a lot and have been exposed to gender free calling for a few years now and have seen lots of men and women dancing in both roles. I even have a badge that says 'I dance both roles' so people know I am happy to dance with them either way round. I like it and think it is a good development and nothing to do with transgender ideology.

Ok, a couple of points.

I shouldn't have posted and run without reading the article properly. Especially on a day when I couldn't get to a computer until the evening! But I had read it quickly and realised that there were some things I agreed with instinctvely, and others that were making me, I don't know, bristle, and I didn't have time to articulate that this morning.

I wasn't making a direct equivalence between the subject of the article and 'gender woo'. I was using the term as a kind of shorthand for any gender-related terminology (as do many posters, I have just been reading the Glinner/BBC journalist thread and there are a few examples!) It was a bit clumsy of me though, and not really what I meant, so sorry to those who read it like that.

I suppose what made me bristle is the idea that this article even needs to be written. I've been attending barn dances/twmpaths/ceilidhs/festou noz and any number of folky events from when I was a small child in the 70s and 80s until the present day, and something that I have remarked upon, from as long ago as I would have been conscious of such things, is how open and tolerant these places are. As previous posters have said, there are always all kinds of couples - parents with children, a person who knows the dance with someone who doesn't, often more women than men... I realise it's anecdotal, but I have always experienced this kind of environment to be completely non-judgemental, and this across several decades and cultures.
The author says "I’d like to explain why gender-free calling makes a big difference to me and my friends in the LGBT+ community when we go to dances."
Well, why are the LGBT+ people more important than the mum 'leading' for her son, or the woman dancing the 'male' role as it's easier to show/lead for her less confident male partner? These are both things you will see at any folkdance you might go to, and guess what, everyone manages quite well to do the dances, understand the calling, not be offended, and have fun.

I completely agree that this kind of dancing is for everyone, and that anyone who wants to should be able to dance in whatever position they like. But this is already true!!

I've been reading this board for a long time - I don't believe in gender.

Anyway, thank you for helping me articulate my thoughts on this!

Oh, and I forgot to say, I think it's Irish set dancing where you get your bearings in relation to the band (or sound/speakers/maybe stage if there isn't one) and then you have tops, bottoms and sides in relation to that. You still have different steps for the partners though.

I folk dance a lot and have been exposed to gender free calling for a few years now and have seen lots of men and women dancing in both roles. I even have a badge that says 'I dance both roles' so people know I am happy to dance with them either way round. I like it and think it is a good development and nothing to do with transgender ideology.

I do think this is great. Maybe it's just the word gender which has this affect on me

Ha darlingdoris and singingtomyseeds, we almost certainly know each other by sight in real life! The ceilidh world isn't exactly huge.

Way back in the 1970s when I was at an all girls school, we used to do country dancing.

We numbered, and were odds and evens

It worked just fine, and I expect those versions have never vanished