16 yo DS called me a TERF

[Skatastic]

He (formally she) came our as trans at the beginning of the year and we've done everything we can to support this. We call him his preferred pronouns, use his preferred name, listen to his woes.

Had a massive argument with him the other day and he called me a TERF. Other highlights were that when I said I don't want to be described as CIS I'm transphobic.

Another massive argument yesterday because I said I don't believe the 'trans women are women' rhetoric. He said well you don't believe I'm a man do you then? And the problem is no, I don't. I think he has serious mental health problems and this has all got tied up in trans stuff.

What the very fuck do I say? Is there a good way to say it? Why is he so fucking self righteous about it? Told me I can't have experienced any difficulties cos I'm a woman. Riiggghhhhtttt I must have dreamed those sexual assaults, sexism at work, being overlooked for promotions because I had to have time off for poorly children (him being one of them, oh the irony).

Not sure what I'm asking for. Solidarity?

Why is he so fucking self righteous about it?
Because teenagers know it all.

Or at least they think they do.

I honestly would try not to get dragged into any conversation around it as I suspect it’s so there can be confrontation.I have a family member who decided at 12 to go from she to he.I’ll give it another year before it’s not trendy anymore-something else cooler will come along.One of my friend’s who works at same big high school says they nearly have more kids doing this than ones not.It is literally becoming a craze!
I’m sorry you are having to deal with this but I would just nod and agree.

@DdraigGoch

Why is he so fucking self righteous about it? Because teenagers know it all.

Or at least they think they do.

"When I was 17, I thought my parents were idiots. When I was 25, I was amazed at how much they learned in just eight years."

You have my solidarity, OP.

Sometimes it's worth 'dropping the rope' as they say - trying to defuse or avoid power struggles. Sometimes children/YP are looking for something to rail against. As a parent, our role is to provide strong and firm and loving boundaries and space for them to learn to manage their feelings. This can be incredibly difficult to say the least, ime. Managing our own feelings, practising self care, balancing listening with maintaining clear boundaries.

In my experience listening and communication is all, but that itself can be a delicate art.

I'm sorry your child is suffering. I'm sorry you are suffering. Hope you can find a way to connect with them again.

www.ahaparenting.com/ages-stages/teenagers

Solidarity. And I would be sorely tempted to tell him that the reason you don't want to be called cis is that you have done some reading, "educated yourself," and realised that you identify as non-binary. Then stop doing his washing.

[I wouldn't actually do this. But I would think about it.]

Tell them that Terf stands for Truth Exposing Radical Feminist. It's a silly insult, and the best way to disarm it is to own it proudly.
More generally, there was a thread very recently from a mother with the opposite ie male to female teenager, and lots of people suggested organisations that might help. The really important thing is that they don't start drugs or worse for many years to come, unless those are connected with mental health. Good luck xx

Also, buy them Helen Joyce's "Trans" book, and read it yourself if you haven't.

OP

Drop the rope.
If he’s a woman he can do his own washing and cooking.

Solidarity. I feel for you, and your child. In my experience, many girls who start identifying as trans as teens do so in the hope that it will make their lives better to navigate them as men.

Unfortunately it doesn't work for most of them.

Stop engaging with the arguments. He is looking for someone to argue with and it doesn’t need to be you. It’s frustrating, but he’s trying to test boundaries and using your opinions as a yard stick against how much you love him. He’s probably thinking ‘but she is cis’ and ‘but I am a man? Why can’t she accept me for who I am?’ As much as you feel these things are misguided or untrue, it’s true for him right now and he is struggling. Disengage from any arguments, it will only hurt him more, and I know you don’t want that. When he is more willing to talk he will come to you then. He just needs to grow up a little more.

OP this must be a difficult time. detransitioned girls have driven alot of the grassroots stuff (for example Helen Joyce wrote her book after speaking to detrans women and girls). They say they felt manipulated by adults and wish someone had spoken up. You love your child and and want to protect them just as any good parent would, so you're speaking up to ensure they have the facts not just one narrow belief system (gender identity idealogy). This article by a mother and her detrans daughter (especially the last story by the daughter herself) will give you loads of idea on what to say and do. 4thwavenow.com/2016/12/17/a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia-helps-her-daughter-desist/

Solidarity.
I think the advice not to argue is sound.
Look up Socratic method for a way to discuss without arguing.
But, they're 16 and both know everything and are very confused. Once you start putting your faith in the incredible then your locus for reality is pretty shaky.
Be gentle.

i told my kid that I didnt believe in God or Allah but I still respected that my brother was muslim and that it is very important to him and I can respect other peoples beliefs whilst not agreeing with everything they say, and Its perfectly possible to respect them as a person and what they feel is important to them in their heart, but if they are trying now to tell me what I must actually BELIEVE, rather than just how I treat people, and also trying to call me names about it when ive been nothing but helpful and loving, is going too far and taking the piss

The advice here is sound. The verbal combat is feeding their obsession. Hard as it is, stepping back and taking the heat out of those issues by refusing to engage will help.

This is the kind of combative attitude young people in the Genderist movement are being coached in - it's part of the obsession to see you as the enemy.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4333482-Tips-to-Avoid-Conversion-Therapy

Step back, keep the communication going in a relationship sense, but refuse to talk about this topic. And also refuse to accept rudeness. That's not acceptable whatever the topic.

@Branleuse

i told my kid that I didnt believe in God or Allah but I still respected that my brother was muslim and that it is very important to him and I can respect other peoples beliefs whilst not agreeing with everything they say, and Its perfectly possible to respect them as a person and what they feel is important to them in their heart, but if they are trying now to tell me what I must actually BELIEVE, rather than just how I treat people, and also trying to call me names about it when ive been nothing but helpful and loving, is going too far and taking the piss

This is perfect. Thank you.

This podcast might be worth a listen, OP

overcast.fm/+mnQeZF1ZY

I haven’t listened to this episode, but this is the blurb

“We invite parents and children to listen to this episode together. Stella and Sasha alternate between the perspectives of the parent and their dysphoric child and attempt to translate what each may be thinking and feeling when communicating about gender identity becomes difficult. Discussing the emotions, the inner motivations, and the thoughts parents and children might experience when gender related distress hits the family, we hope that this episode might begin to build bridges between parents and young people and foster more empathy in the parent-child dyad”

Stella and Sasha are very helpful on these topics, and bring some nuance and compassion to the fraught debate.

Good luck to you, it sounds very difficult

As for what you can do - I would recommend reading the parent accounts on sites like 4thwavenow.com/

There they share how they talked to their kids, what worked, what might not have worked. At the very least it will show you that you're not alone in this, and that this isn't easy for other parents either. There's also various threads here on FWR from mums in the same boat as you.

As for arguing with your child, you need to be the adult here and model good behaviour. (I know that sounds pants, but if you get emotional and agitated, so will the child. They look to you for instinctive guidance on how to react. It's hard to self-regulate your emotions when hormones flood your system. Even harder when mum is getting so angry and exasperated.)

I understand that you're arguing for the most part because you're worried because you know this isn't the solution to your child's problems. But there are better ways to approach it than having big arguments.

My middle DC was very challenging at that age. Still is, but at 18 is now less prone to angry outbursts. At the worst times, I followed the advice in a little parenting book called "Get out of my room but first take me & Alex into town" by Susanne Franks. I also referred to "How to Talk So Teens Will Listen and Listen So Teens Will Talk", that's a book by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. The techniques for finding ways to communicate with your teen when you're in conflict were quite useful to me.

It isn't easy to parent a teen at the best of times, and what you're going through is even more challenging. And in that situation, I like to tap into the wisdom of others. Another book I recommend is "Blame My Brain: the Amazing Teenage Brain Revealed" by Nicola Morgan. It explains a lot of stuff about my teens' behaviour that I found frustrating.

Don't get me wrong - I set boundaries with my kids and one of them is drawing the line firmly on calling me names. No matter what they think I'm doing wrong, I do not accept that kind of behaviour. So when the argument or situation is over where one of the kids overstepped a ground rule, and calm has returned, I call a family meeting and remind the kids of what's acceptable behaviour. And then I spend most of the time listening to them, really taking in what they say, asking questions (not repeating the argument from before. It's mostly about how they feel and what I'm doing wrong )

If it's properly fraught, we've even done the talking stick (wooden spoon in our case).

But in your situation I would try to wind it all back down to a less confrontational level, one where the kids feel like I'm hearing what they say. It doesn't always work straightaway, sometimes I need several tries. Sometimes I'm too angry to do it, so I tell the kids that I'm going for a walk to calm down. It doesn't hurt them knowing that we can wrestle with strong emotions, too.

I wish you all the best Skatastic and I hope you'll find a way to talk to each other in the love that you clearly have for your child

My sympathies OP, for your and for your child's struggles right now.

It's the basic social contract, which may help to point out.

Step 1: You wish to define yourself as you choose, and for me to unconditionally accept that you alone know, you alone choose your words and beliefs.

That's fine. I accept that. I will not enforce my words, definitions and beliefs on you and insist you conform to them; I accept your freedom to believe and frame yourself as you wish.

Step 2: You have to grant me the exact same courtesy.

If you want this from me, you have to give this to me too. If you get to enforce your words, your beliefs, your version of my identity on me - then obviously I get to enforce all mine on you in return too, right?

Either we all believe in peace or love and tolerance, or this is actually demanding I engage in a major power imbalance and a control game where my role is subordination. Which is it?

I would wear your badge with honour!

Sad your relationship with your son has been impacted by all of this. I'm so sorry.

My advice, OP, but you do have my sympathy.

I'd ask your child if they believe in self-identification? (They have self-identified so presumably yes)

Then I'd say you don't identify as CIS, (you can say what you do identify as - agender whatever - if you want) nor do you identify as a TERF.

And that they might want to examine why everyone else is afforded the right self-identify their gender except you. And if they're imposing a gender on you (CIS) then that's transphobic, not you.

I really worry that these children think that it's transphobic for adults to correctly sex babies / children yet apparently the older generation is not allowed to self-define. It speaks to a huge lack of empathy that I think is worrying for the future. It's like they don't see the older generation as fully human.

You could also mention that a lot of the older generation believe that sex matters, not just gender, for very good reasons that most young people don't understand e.g. the huge sex gap in progression (and also discrimination) that happens when female bodies have babies. That you are happy to respect self identified gender but also believe that sex matters very much - including for your DS, however they identify gender-wise - because of years of experience of it mattering.

If people can self identify then that should mean everyone. Others cannot slap the cis label on people without their agreement. Infuriating.
But yes the beat advice is not to engage on this topic at all. Focus on how he's feeling, what's really going on underneath all this. The argument about this is a distraction and a fixation and something to get angry about. It's a channel for him to get mad at you and call you out for being unsupportive. So don't engage.

What's wrong with being called a TERF? Tell it like it is and don't be ashamed.

Thank you all, I appreciate every comment and I'm reading and learning.

I love him so very much and I do try hard not to argue with him but he follows me around, piping on in my ear, or sends 30 WhatsApp an hour. So sometimes I do snap. It has impacted our whole family and I feel like I'm clinging on by my fingernails most days.

Thank you again, I appreciate it so much.