Guardian long read by Shon Faye about trans children

[Booboobadoo]

I couldn't find a thread about this already, thought would add:
www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/24/shaky-acceptance-transgender-kids-families-fight-for-inclusion?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Also: if, in "the past", trans kids could not speak to their parents (or anyone else), and therefore didn't receive the help and treatment they needed, did they all commit suicide (which we're always being told will be the next thing that happens) and do these figures appear in the statistics?

@jellyfrizz

It’s pushing hard on the nothing at all to do with stereotypes isn’t it?

For some trans people it’s all about the stereotypes and very little to do with wanting to be the opposite sex (e.g non-binary identities). Which is fine but it’s just not the same thing at all.

I really feel that those with body (I.e. sex) dysphoria who used to be known as transsexual are very much being let down by everyone else being shoved under the ‘trans’ umbrella and used when convenient (as in this article) to prove the point that ‘it’s not about stereotypes’.

The supporters are very big on telling us what gender identity is not, but somewhat less keen on clarifying what it is, at least in any way that explains why it needs physical accommodation in the real world that magically exactly aligns to preexisting single sex provisions.

The cynical might think that's because pinning it down to an exact definition would open the door to a concrete discussion of bslancing trans needs and appropriate support against the needs and appropriate support of other disadvantaged or vulnerable groups instead of the current "If as a trans person I feel I must have this that is proof I must have it so it's negating and hateful to deny me."

"in fact, there aren’t greater numbers of children asserting a trans identity than there were in the past. There are simply more children who feel able to talk about it openly and seek support and advocacy from their parents."

So where are all the middle aged women transitioning to become men? The teenage girls of twenty/thirty/forty years ago, who are no longer under their parents' control? Because if the uptick in teenage girls transitioning to become boys was a real thing, wouldn't we see that reflected in older women who never had the opportunity to transition when they were younger? Or does Shon only care about males?

One theme in Kate and Joe’s story, which recurs in many accounts of trans children attempting to express a variant identity, is the initial reluctance of most parents to fully affirm that their child is another gender.

..is another gender. What does this mean?

One theme in Kate and Joe’s story, which recurs in many accounts of trans children attempting to express a variant identity, is the initial reluctance of most parents to fully affirm that their child is another gender.

This is true. I've been reading, as part of something I'm doing, every single account of a parent with a trans child I can find, and every one tells of a young child who liked things or clothes stereotypically associated with the opposite sex, and nearly every time at least one parent was keen to prevent this, some of them violently, because they were anti-gay, embarrassed, or wedded to traditional gender roles.

The conclusion that this means there are lots of 'trans children' and not lots of sexist, homophobic parents is utterly baffling.

I don't have time or inclination to read this, I'm too busy enjoying my erasure.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ekc_aR5LyAk

so as expected it's very strong on emotion, 'its just like section 28' and if you dont go along with every demand you're literal child killers hyperbole?

I'll read excerpts from Shon's book or indeed Shon's entire book if Shon is willing to read Helen Joyce's book

somehow I doubt that would ever happen so i wont give this nonsense one further iota of my time

This book is being touted by TRAs as offering groundbreaking insight into trans lives. It was the subject of a bidding war I think. Am I to understand that it's just a list of exactly the same easily refuted hyperbolic arguments that every two bit anime avatar on Twitter spouts?

A lot of, what looks like, internalised homophobia stemming from school bullies from Shon there. Shon has my every sympathy for having to enduring bullying at school. People can be merciless in protecting their own status by projecting their insecurities onto others.

I really can't be doing with 'children are trans if they say they are' ideology. My dd identified as trans for 4 years, was immediately accepted as trans by all clinicians, but as soon as she started having her own doubts, she was dismissed. She still has help for her mental health, but it's now been 5 years since she identified as trans. Every single new clinician she sees brings up the trans history, not one of them will now believe her when she says she's not transgender. Believing people only works one way it seems.

not one of them will now believe her when she says she's not transgender. Believing people only works one way it seems.

I'm sorry she's experiencing this. It must be so traumatic to have to be constantly reminded of the decision she made at a much younger age. You're right that it only seems to go one way. Which must make it so much harder for those who realise they were wrong to be able to step back, express doubts and make the change back again.

@FloralBunting

One theme in Kate and Joe’s story, which recurs in many accounts of trans children attempting to express a variant identity, is the initial reluctance of most parents to fully affirm that their child is another gender.

This is true. I've been reading, as part of something I'm doing, every single account of a parent with a trans child I can find, and every one tells of a young child who liked things or clothes stereotypically associated with the opposite sex, and nearly every time at least one parent was keen to prevent this, some of them violently, because they were anti-gay, embarrassed, or wedded to traditional gender roles.

The conclusion that this means there are lots of 'trans children' and not lots of sexist, homophobic parents is utterly baffling.

I entirely agree and am intrigued about whether you are collating data on this? It would make a great resource.

I often think it is better to show what we mean using the words in pro trans articles so that people can relax about what they are reading.

This from the Guardian describes what was going on with the adults and schools behind three transitioned children:

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/15/trans-transgender-children-gender-family-project

Liking things stereotypically assumed as being for boys but being forced to present as stereotypically feminine; watching a TV show aged 6 about trans people and more stereotypes; homophobic bullying at school plus homophobic parental attitude. And with all three examples thriving on the attention of the medical professionals, therapists and youth group.

I can see that for a parent worried about their child, who has been told they will kill themselves if they don't transition, gaining trans status for them must initially feel like a forcefield of protection. It is so sad that these children weren't able to access the attention they needed without telling them that their bodies were wrong. It is so sad that the bullying was not dealt with. And it is so sad that the parents didn't question their own sexist, homophobic beliefs.

My dd identified as trans for 4 years, was immediately accepted as trans by all clinicians, but as soon as she started having her own doubts, she was dismissed. She still has help for her mental health, but it's now been 5 years since she identified as trans. Every single new clinician she sees brings up the trans history, not one of them will now believe her when she says she's not transgender. Believing people only works one way it seems.

That's horrifying. So your daughter (who is now presumably in her late teens or a young adult) is being told by professionals that her beliefs about herself and her identity when she was a much younger child are more important than how she feels now she is older?

Pre-comment, comment: when talking of pretransition Faye, I will use the appropriate pretransition pronouns.

I remember Shon's first article in the guardian where he wrote of being a man who likes to wear make up. In 2014 if I remember rightly?

What I do remember, really vividly, is a particularly astute assessment of the type of people who will cross a room and fall over themselves in their enthusiasm to compliment the man in makeup on his look in the said makeup.

We see it all the time now, scores of lib fems gushing about "omg your cateye flick is amazing I wish I had your make up skills qween" to certain gentlemen taking a differently motivated interest in Shon and grabbing the opportunity to look liberal and progressive whilst doing so.

So yeah I'd expect Shon's book to be well written, Shon is expensively educated after all. I'm not going to read it. I haven't seen any of the pics either, is Shon wearing an approximation of what adult human females have to wear to be taken seriously or is Shon swanning around through this media campaign in a negligee? I also expect that Shon's extensive plastic surgery won't be a reason to belittle or mock Shon as proof that Shon is shallow or vacuous. It really feels as if it's just not possible for the world to treat Shon in the same way as the world treats women.

It’s pushing hard on the nothing at all to do with stereotypes isn’t it?

It starts off like that, but can't avoid them completely. It's not long before Shon can't resist mentioning a shopping trip where all Alex's clothes were bought from the girls' section.

Urgh

I hate all this "inclusion " talk.

How are trans kids not included? They are allowed to do everything everyone else is. The only things that are a problem.is when stuff is a safguarding risk.. such as adults keeping secrets from parents amd the ignoring of single sex spaces requirements. But that's not attempt to exclude. That's safeguarding. Something that's not a personal attack.or a statement about anyone in particular.

This level of creating victims is the problem.

Not perceived lack of inclusion

Shon Faye's article about being a man who wears make-up is still there:

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/dec/06/my-life-in-makeup

I'm surprised the Guardian haven't removed it, given the Orwellian principle that we're all supposed to now adhere to: Shon Faye is a woman, and Shon Faye has always been a woman, the person known as Sean Faye never existed etc.

In the days when the Guardian used to allow comments on articles about trans issues, they did a piece making mention of Faye as a trans woman, and I wrote a mild comment referencing this 2014 article. It was deleted.

@OldCrone

My dd identified as trans for 4 years, was immediately accepted as trans by all clinicians, but as soon as she started having her own doubts, she was dismissed. She still has help for her mental health, but it's now been 5 years since she identified as trans. Every single new clinician she sees brings up the trans history, not one of them will now believe her when she says she's not transgender. Believing people only works one way it seems.

That's horrifying. So your daughter (who is now presumably in her late teens or a young adult) is being told by professionals that her beliefs about herself and her identity when she was a much younger child are more important than how she feels now she is older?

Yes - exactly that. She's early 20s now. She also gets told that her mental health issues are due to repressing the original trans identification. She patiently explains that she now realises her original feelings were based around her ASD black and white notions of sex stereotypes - that you can be a girl that is obsessed by Star Wars, etc. Guess what... she then gets told she has internalised transphobia and is a man - because she said so.

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]I don't have time or inclination to read this, I'm too busy enjoying my erasure.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ekc_aR5LyAk[/quote]

It is however useful to remember the vilely homophobic atmosphere of schools in the 80s. If you were there and if you were gender non-conforming then you were traumatised.

And the 90's. It was vile. I'm bi, so there were boys that I fancied, but I'd lie as well, because some people did get a bit too close to the truth because I'd sometimes argue against the homophobia. Teachers seemed oblivious to most of what went on, other bullying as well, girls being groped, nothing was ever done. Not that I'm bitter or anything...

every one tells of a young child who liked things or clothes stereotypically associated with the opposite sex, and nearly every time at least one parent was keen to prevent this, some of them violently, because they were anti-gay, embarrassed, or wedded to traditional gender roles.

I liked so much 'boy' stuff as a child, still do. Luckily my parents never had a problem with this - they never said 'no that's only for boys', had enough of that off my peers (and sometimes teachers).

It's so depressing as I thought we trying to move away from shit like that, instead it seems to get more and more re-enforced.

Let me have a little guess here: comments not open?
We know how confident the guardian are with this sort of stuff by the fact they allow no discussion. They know their readers disagree.

I don't think anyone should be saying they won't read this because of the author. It's always good to see if people you disagree with have something persuasive to say which isn't the case here

they got in a lovely big picture of Shon just to make sure everyone was clear what the article was really about, which is nice

the bit that leapt out to me is Shon's evident outrage about any and all coverage of trans issues. Trans rights activists REALLY want this to be completely under the radar, hence the 'trans children get a brick through their window if you publish an article wondering if girls should have access to single sex toilets' narrative.

the mantra has moved on from 'no debate' to shutup shutup shutup'

also you'll be astonished to learn there's a complete lack of specifics covered

do Alex's lovely middle class parents think they'll advocate for Alex to take drugs which will sterilise them and stunt the growth of their genitals? it's an important point to consider (particularly for poor Alex)

Do they expect Alex to use the girls loos at school? how do they think the girls will feel about that? what about sport?

Oh, and Shon? most trans children are female now. no coverage of them though of course

@PamDenick

We are sleepwalking into a safeguarding nightmare…

Absolutely. Actually, it’s already going on.

There's no explanation of what Alex thinks 'being a girl' is, or why Alex is so sure that Alex is a girl when Alex has a boy's body.

Alex doesn't like dolls, likes reading, isn't a 'girly girl' (whatever that means - it's an odd way to describe a male child...), but apparently likes to wear 'girls' clothes'.

Is this just another little boy who has been told that some things are forbidden because they are 'for girls'? Or perhaps bullied and told he must be a girl because he prefers reading to playing football?

Shon doesn't address any of this. Perhaps there's more detail about how you can tell that a young child is 'really trans' in the book.

It is also important to remember what benefits can be derived from the dramatic increase in teenage females transitioning. Especially for those males pushing the narrative about trans children.

So, in this article (cannot access as poor WiFi ) do they discuss the significant health risks for transitioning young people and the significant difference in that risk for females vs males?

Any depth of acknowledgment at all?