Sexism/objectification of women

[BlueBlazerBlack]

Hello all
Apologies in advance for the long thread...

I've been feeling a bit down this week. I was recently told that some of the guys my DP hangs out with - mostly married men in their late 30s/early 40s with children - have been talking about us each others' partners, for example 'rating' us in terms of our appearance, discussing which of us they would have sex, and debating what our best physical attributes are.

It was one of the guys' partner who mentioned this to me in passing, and then seemed surprised how shocked I was. She laughed it off and said something along the lines of 'boys will be boys' and that they were drunk, so it didn't matter.

I honestly feel disgusted. I know men do talk about women's appearance, but I thought they would usually just stick to talking about famous women or the girls they might see in a bar. I find it creepy that they would talk about each others' partners and about our bodies.

I talked to my DP and he swears he's never participated in such conversations. He doesn't drink as much as the other guys so often leaves early. I believe him because in all the time I've known him (+15 years) he's never once made such a comment. Also, we both come from a more conservative culture where sex isn't discussed so openly, I think he would be embarrassed and also angry if any of the guys talked about me like that in his presence.

The woman who told me this made me feel like I was overreacting, that it wasn't important, and my DP has also told me that it's not really any of our business what the other guys talk about when we're not there. But I am so disappointed in these men. Most of them are educated professionals with young daughters, they are not adolescents anymore and should know better.

We sometimes socialise with these people and I know I will feel uncomfortable around them from now on.

Am I overreacting? For context, the other woman is a total flirt and loves this sort of attention. She is also ok with her DP going to strip clubs (which I'm not).

Hi OP, you're not overreacting. It's horrible to think that people who you socialise with, who you thought of as either friends or acquaintances are judging you in such an immature and sexist way.
Like you say, it's one thing in your own head to rate a celebrity etc. it's very different to talk openly about people you know in such a degrading manner.

What's more frustrating is how many women will also justify this, like your friend did. How pathetic.

No you are not overreacting at all, these are not people that I would want to be friends with. ‘Boys will be boys’ is part of rape culture, how grim. No wonder you are upset. DP is right I suppose that you can’t police what people talk about, but you can challenge it. Not saying it’s your responsibility, but it’s good to air your feelings with whomever you feel you can, the female partners and the men, if you feel able. I would also expect my partner to challenge this but I can’t imagine him wanting to spend lots of time with men who speak like this.

How strange, I was talking to my DH and DS about this kind of thing a few days ago as part of a different conversation.

Both of them were adamant that speaking of some other man's wife, partner, child etc in those terms, in their presence, would start a fight.

This was not necessarily a good thing (part of a discussion about men treating women as their property) but its generally considered to be disrespectful of the other man.

I was told even as a twelve year old girl that that stuff, and more, is literally "boys will be boys." As an adult I've been told it's normal and I have to just accept it from men. I think it's awful and don't understand it. However, I've concluded that most men are like this even though I don't condone it, I know I can't change it. Sorry, not a help I'm sure, just showing you that you are not alone or wrong for being put off and upset by it, even if it is reality. They are idiots, the women too!

Also been told if I don't want comments made, then don't wear dresses, or jewelry or anything like that

so basically, I'd just realize that's how many people are and either get good at not caring what others think (I'm no ace at it!) or realize they are idiots or have a different life view than you and either deal with them or not. Not sure of the answer myself cuz calling em out never works; it just further cements that you are a worthless girl and you will be made to feel like the strange one. You know how you feel about it and that is OK; don't let anyone make you believe otherwise. It's also sad that dehumanising is one of the main tenenants of society. No wonder the humans' mental and physical and spiritual health is trashed, even the planet. We are just meat sacks, irritating ones unless we sit don't move and smile. BS. Keep firmly resolved in your soul they can get your body with words or more but they can't get your soul!

Just ignore the gaslighting by the woman who fessed up to you about this conversation. Of course your reaction of disgust is perfectly normal, and not in any way excessive.

Women who are unfortunate enough to be raising children with a selfish, narcissistic man-child are often so desperately manufacturing excuses for their partner's bad behaviour that they try to rope in their friends to make excuses for it too. If, deep down, this woman didn't know that the behaviour of the men in your group was out of line, why did she bother to tell you about it? You did her a favour by not going along with her "cool girl" nonsense.

It's vile behaviour, and you were right to say so. They're not boys being boys - they're adult men, and fathers at that, and most men grow out of rating each other's girlfriends before they finish secondary school. I'm not surprised you've been a bit down, knowing that these men think it's perfectly normal to discuss women they claim to love as if you are all transferrable sex dolls and fodder for their pornographic fantasies. Once their daughters are old enough to have boyfriends, is this how they would want men to speak about their daughters?

You'd be perfectly within your rights to ask DP to tell his friends not to discuss you that way whether or not you or DP are present, as it's gross. We can't control what other people say about us behind our backs, but we can tell them what we think about what they're saying. If it were me I'd also be telling DP that I don't want to hear about these friends, and they can forget about ever being invited round to the house again. You (and DP) sound like nice people - surely you can find some much nicer friends that these?

Just trying to imagine who from DH's friendship group would be comfortable talking about what he'd like to do sexually to his friend's wife or partner

Its not normal and its not acceptable but unfortunately I can see why a woman would brush off this kind of behaviour from her partner when I see women on MN accepting physical abuse as a normal part of relationships in order to ignore reality. Its like a coping mechanism (how much shit would you like in your tea?)

I'm sorry your husband's friends are like this. If it was me I wouldn't want to have anything more to do with them either. I don't know what else to offer other than don'tcompromise your boundaries to make someone else feel better about themselves.

How disappointing. I’m sure your DH is re-evaluating his friendships now. Personally, I’d distance myself from these couples. Seek out new friends and hopefully your DH will want to as well.

Just to throw it in as a question: how much do you trust the person who told you, and could you find out from any of the other partners whether this is likely to be true or not?

Some people unfortunately like to cause upset and drama. She might be poking you with a stick to see how you react.

Fwiw, I'm pretty confident that my DH would never speak with his friends about partners in that way. We're not from a remotely conservative culture, but he's a decent person.

Thank you all for the responses. It's good to know it's not just me.

It's definitely changed how I view these men - not all of them are like this but there are definitely one or 2 ringleaders who encourage bad behaviour in the others, but I thought it was more about drinking than making sexist comments. The other men are weak for joining in.

I'm not going to confront anyone, but it's definitely made me re-evaluate who we socialise with.

It's also incredibly annoying when you spend your life trying to get people not to judge you based on your looks, to take you seriously as a professional woman, or to value you as a friend for your intelligence, wit or kindness, and then some prat, who quite frankly wouldn't stand a chance if you he were single and you met him in a bar, gets to decide how 'shaggable' you are.

@JustWaking

Just to throw it in as a question: how much do you trust the person who told you, and could you find out from any of the other partners whether this is likely to be true or not?

Some people unfortunately like to cause upset and drama. She might be poking you with a stick to see how you react.

Fwiw, I'm pretty confident that my DH would never speak with his friends about partners in that way. We're not from a remotely conservative culture, but he's a decent person.

I don't 100% trust the person who told me, but I've heard from someone else, whom I do trust, that such comments were made on at least one occasion. The person who told me does like to cause drama, so she could have exaggerated the story, but I do think there is a grain of truth. What I struggle with is accepting that men in their 40s could still behave this way - even if it is 'banter', it's quite hurtful.

not all of them are like this but there are definitely one or 2 ringleaders who encourage bad behaviour in the others, but I thought it was more about drinking than making sexist comments. The other men are weak for joining in

See, this pisses me off. It’s usually a couple of men and the others either join in or stay quiet. They should speak up about this. The whole culture of misogyny and looking on women as inferior and walking sex providers is sustained by these men’s cowardice.

They start young with the disrespect. A boy of about 12-14 made a sexual comment to me the other day. I was so shocked it took me a while to compute. How on earth did he start seeing women as interchangeable objects that’s only value is sexual?

Do men get some kind of self-esteem boost by talking like this?