Guardian conflates DSD with non-binary identity.

[merrymouse]

amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/09/1000-year-old-remains-in-finland-may-be-non-binary-viking-researchers-say?__twitter_impression=true

I think in this understanding of history people were just like really inclusive of all identities and like really sooo much more in touch with alternative understandings of identity than we are now… unless they were deciding who could be King.

NPR did the same thing: www.npr.org/2021/08/09/1026183914/new-dna-analysis-finds-1-000-year-old-warrior-remains-may-be-non-binary

It looks like these media outlets are regurgitating what the researchers are saying, and the researchers are the ones advancing the dubious theory that this person was "non-binary."

I think I must be non-binary because I mowed the lawn this morning and that's definitely a job for a man.....

As a Swede let me say this is ridiculous. They are conflating today’s social issues and understanding with society centuries ago. We can’t trans people from the past.

Viking tribes were all not identical, however women were participating in raids and were also warriors. If this person was buried in women’s clothing then we would assume in their tribe they were seen as a woman. When did we start forgetting that there were women who were Vikings?

Calling this person “non binary” is I feel disingenuous. This is putting modern sexual identity politics onto a person who is dead and has been for centuries. And it’s offensive when non Scandinavians are doing this to use as some agenda to prjve some point. It’s a slap in the face to Scandinavian women. So the Viking womens? What about the ones with xx.. will we start transing them and saying they identified as men? Well we all know only men are Vikings right?

I find it extremely offensive when people are trying to take Anyone from from history and trans them.

This is taking away from any historic fact to just apply this label based on society today.

If you did anything “manly” you are not a woman?

I don’t know what is going on. But one message is women can do anything. But the other is if you do anything considered masculine then you are not a woman.

Where is the sense in this?

A non-binary viking. Ffs. You've got to laugh out loud at this.

It's like something from a Monty Python sketch

Discovery of "Bishop" buried in cassock and vestment suggests existence of a medieval non-binary preistly caste.

"Julian" of Nowich: Trans or Non-Bi?

Hapschesut in false beard proves Ancient Egypt was trans-friendly.

Et Irrumabao Cetera

It is like 3the mormons converting the dead

Link to another thread about this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4312299-Warrior-buried-in-womens-clothes-DMA-test

I read recently an American claim that the theory of 2 sexes was introduced by colonialism.
I think what they meant was possibly that before the Americas were colonialised, some of the native American tribes had various concepts of a "third gender", such as "two-spirit". Thing is, from my point of view it is actually neocolonialist to interpret "two-spirit" through the lens of modern First World trans ideology.
Their comment went on to claim that many ancient societies recognised NB identities, as proven by some of the gods having the ability to change sex in the Norse sagas. Now, this made me laugh, because the gods were divine and magical beings. The fact that they could change sex (I am not sure if they changed sex or simply disguised themselves) and change species, and so on, is irrelevant to what the Vikings believed about us humans.
It is remarkable how easily the past is distorted and misinterpreted.

@MarshmallowSwede - excellent posts.

Thing is, from my point of view it is actually neocolonialist to interpret "two-spirit" through the lens of modern First World trans ideology.

Oddly enough that is one thing that stuck with me from my classes on Michel Foucault, that we cannot apply modern ideas when interpreting the past.

Not only is it flawed to apply modern concepts to past societies, but they aren't even applying the modern idea of "non-binary" correctly. It's a chosen identity, nothing to do with chromosomes. A person who has XXY chromosomes isn't non-binary unless they choose to be. How transphobic is the guardian for assuming someone's gender identity.

What about shieldmaidens?

Klinefelter Syndrome is not a DSD. Males with Klinefelter are unequivocally male. They are men, or boys. There is no ambiguity, or “intersex”, or in between. It’s a chromosomal aneuploidy that affects the XY chromosomes.

Bunch of flat earthers. And every time they find a jewelry disk, or even a shield, the cry goes up, "You see! They were flat earthers then!"

And to think I was one of the people who saw this newfangled "internet" and "web" as a Good Thing because it would reduce the power of gatekeepers.

Horrible failure of my imagination. But I'd never lived in a Dark Ages village.

UnderTheir comment went on to claim that many ancient societies recognised NB identities, as proven by some of the gods having the ability to change sex in the Norse sagas. Now, this made me laugh, because the gods were divine and magical beings. The fact that they could change sex (I am not sure if they changed sex or simply disguised themselves) and change species, and so on, is irrelevant to what the Vikings believed about us humans.

I understand that at one point Loki disguised himself as a mare, and in that form gave birth to Odin's 8-legged horse Sleipnir. Apparently the Vikings only believed that humans could change sex, but could change species as well!

I contacted them. Apparently the original authors of the research report used that terminology! How they could possibly know what identities ancient people used? In any case, they assumed that this person was a woman as Kleinefelter's syndrome creates a female-looking body.

Thor disguised himself as Freya. It was clearly a funny story because the great big, lumbering Thor was nothing like the beautiful goddess.

He didn't literally become a woman!

Loki was a shape shifter who was able to take on different forms.

@NotBadConsidering

Klinefelter Syndrome is not a DSD. Males with Klinefelter are unequivocally male. They are men, or boys. There is no ambiguity, or “intersex”, or in between. It’s a chromosomal aneuploidy that affects the XY chromosomes.

DSD means difference of sexual development or disorder of sexual development and covers a very wide variety of conditions,

I agree that it does not necessarily imply any ambiguity, and that the article’s references to Klinefelter syndrome are a bit confusing.

Anyway, according to their findings either a man who might have had under developed testicles was regarded as a non male, or a tomb that was previously believed to contain a female warrior now doesn’t.

The obvious mistake they are making is assuming that the 21st century concept of a non binary identity isn’t sexist.

I was telling friends and family how this is actually being said about Vikings and women in Viking tribes and they think these people are idiots. No one anywhere in Scandinavia in general is going to not know women were Vikings and going to agree that there were “non binary” Vikings. This was not even something the tribes believed. The gods may be able to shift and appear as an animal or another god to trick you, but humans not being gods .. not able to change. You are who you are and male is male and female is female.

Can we also discuss Viking tribal clothing. As I mentioned the tribes were not all identical. But common culture of course is there. Some tribes dressed differently. And also let’s address clothing they would
Wear when going on raids. We do understand that even women would dress
As would be appropriate for such an activity. Viking men and women are were not either going raiding in what would be “womens”
Dress. They needed to be able to maneuver and fight.

So if If you find a Viking woman in a grave she would likely be dressed as a man. Or what would be considered male dress
For her tribe. So these are still women. They are dressed for their job. As one has a uniform. They would be dressed appropriately.

I would think this would be obvious. When a Viking grave is found then If That person is not dead on a battle field then he or she would be buried in their clothes they would
Wear when not raiding. But also it’s not unknown for warriors to be buried as a warrior. Male or female

So now they are saying women warriors were men. How progressive! We are being bombarded with the message that women can only do “feminine” things and if you don’t You are not a woman. Being told this by men who know better what makes a woman.