Irish Times article on conversion therapy

[RoastChicory]

The IT has published this article by some therapists arguing against a conversion therapy ban. It is notable that of the 101 comments, every single one is gender critical. This raises questions as to whether there is really support in Ireland for self-id, or whether it was sneaked in by activists without most people realising the repercussions.

Bill to ban conversion therapy poses problems for therapists
via The Irish Times
www.irishtimes.com/opinion/bill-to-ban-conversion-therapy-poses-problems-for-therapists-1.4642164

It's good to see a nuanced article in the Irish Times on this subject, they've featured precious few outside of their Letters page. I can't see the comments, are they viewable only by subscribers?

The comments are viewable by anyone, and the section should load shortly after the article text. If they aren't displaying, it could be worth trying a private browser window, or a different browser.

Someone archived the piece yesterday here, some comments are there if the original page won't load properly.

The comments were great - 100% against the usurping of women's rights. I hope the political parties are taking note - the Irish public are not walking with them on this issue. There are some letters of support there to-day too.

The comments are great. As far as I can see the vast majority of people in Ireland either don't know about "gender issues" or think "ah, sure, what's the harm, those poor confused people" .

There is nothing in mainstream press about prisons, rape crisis centres or hospital wards, and even the Olympics coverage was strangely and perhaps deliberately obfuscated.

I'm now trying to summon up the guts to send the link to my brother who thinks I'm a bigot

@TurquoiseBaubles

The comments are great. As far as I can see the vast majority of people in Ireland either don't know about "gender issues" or think "ah, sure, what's the harm, those poor confused people" .

There is nothing in mainstream press about prisons, rape crisis centres or hospital wards, and even the Olympics coverage was strangely and perhaps deliberately obfuscated.

I'm now trying to summon up the guts to send the link to my brother who thinks I'm a bigot

Herein lies most of the problem. If you question this, you are an automatic bigot, so ridiculous.

So much of this has deliberately gone under the radar for the last few years. I have talked to many people about Self ID, and nobody had a clue. This includes people who campaigned for gay marriage back in 2015, when this law was also brought it.

It was deliberately kept out of the public sphere.

The other issue is that no political party will touch this with a barge pole. The only one is Aontú who have all sorts of weird policies that I don't align with, and they will never get mainstream traction anyway.

It's actually so crazy how this does not represent the views of the majority AT ALL, and yet was pushed through and is roundly ignored by those in power. There needs to be serious questions asked as to how this was allowed to happen.

I would urge everyone to email/ write to your local representatives and voice your strong opposition to this. If enough people speak up, it is the only way they will see that the voters are not in agreement with this policy, and losing votes may be the only thing that turns this around.

Although I have emailed several times and got no response, they don't seem to care . So depressing.

Link to today's letters in the Irish Times: Conversion Therapies Bill (archive)

The Journal have this today, also with open comments: Department to look at 'extent and nature' of conversion therapy in Ireland before moving to ban

User comments are heavily moderated on thejournal.ie, so the ones published on that article may not accurately reflect people's opinions on the issue.

Bloody brilliant to see

Brilliant interview on Newstalk with Sean Moncrieff about this. I thought he was really pro all things trans but he is thoughtful and genuinely interested in the issues here: www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-moncrieff/gay-conversion-therapy-2

And here comes the rebuttal

Interesting list of people - I was a member of some of those organisations - I am sure many members would do a look if they thought this was written in their name.

I cut and pasted as I could not send a link.
Letter to The Irish Times, printed August 13th.

Sir, – We wish to state our firm commitment to a ban on so-called “conversion therapy” – an abusive and dehumanising practice that seeks to “cure” or suppress a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity/expression.
In doing so, we reject any assertion that the kind of legislation proposed would in any way hinder ethically responsible professionals from providing care, counselling and support to clients – a vastly different proposition to the highly unethical and widely discredited practice of deliberately seeking to change or suppress a person’s LGBT+ identity. In short, no one can accidentally engage in so-called “conversion therapy”.
We agree with Minister for Equality Roderic O’Gorman, who, when referencing the programme for government commitment to outlaw this “therapy”, stated that “a person’s sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression is not up for debate”. Furthermore, Ireland will be following the growing number of other jurisdictions (New Zealand being the latest) that have already enacted prohibitions in this area, explicitly encompassing not just sexual orientation but gender identity too.
Nor is this an abstract or theoretical concern for LGBT+ people: As former president Mary McAleese reminded us recently, it is something that is still happening in Ireland today.
Thankfully, there now exists a strong political and societal consensus that “conversion therapy” – in any guise – is unacceptable.
We now need to get on with enacting a comprehensive, fully LGBT+ inclusive ban. – Yours, etc,
CAROLINE KEANE,
Chair,
National LGBT Federation, Dublin 2,
and on behalf of
Transgender Equality
Network Ireland (Teni),
Abortion Rights Campaign,
Action for Choice,
Alliance for Choice,
Amach Lgbt Galway,
Amnesty International
Ireland,
Anti-Conversion Therapy
Coalition,
Belong to,
Bi+ Ireland,
UCD Centre for Gender,
Sexualities and
Feminisms,
Disabled Women of Ireland,
Dublin LGBTQ Pride,
Dundalk Outcomers,
Fingal Feminist Network,
Galway Community Pride,
Gay Project (Cork),
Gossip Galway,
LGBT Ireland,
Outhouse – LGBT Centre,
Shout Out,
and MARK SMYTH,
(2020 President,
Psychological
Society of Ireland).

#BoycottTheIrishTimes is a hashtag on Twitter today. Some people have been cancelling subscriptions and commercial arrangements. A sample:

twitter.com/DublinStickers/status/1426144928887971846
twitter.com/IzzyKamikaze/status/1426156147782963202
twitter.com/kackjennedy/status/1426136794937057286

Not sure if people noticed, but ironically enough the TRA's don't seem to have noticed the letter today. Comerford posted a letter published by a trans widow in March vs an unpleasantly homophobic article by a tabloid about 30 years ago. A lot of people claim on twitter they are cancelling subscriptions. I have rung them to say I'm taking out a sub, and to thank them for being the only MSM to tackle this. The person I spoke to was delighted to hear the positive feedback as he said it's been a busy day. If anyone is considering taking out or renewing a lapsed sub , please do.

This letter was in yesterday

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/conversion-therapies-bill-1.4644814?mode=amp

Not on Twitter - is the boycott due to the article or the letters?

Oh, cross post. I already have a subscription - the comments show that subscribers are supportive of the writers.
The constantly outraged set subscribe to nothing, having been raised on free content. And look where that has led their critical thinking skills 🙄

Combination Anna, there was anger over the article and the fact the first two days of letter feedback supported it, ironically today when they did post the TRA's "rebuttal", people thought it was actually a letter from March so went off on one (Panti Bliss included).

Great podcast , I imagine Sean moncrieff has a wider audience than Twitter .The law in Ireland on self ID was very much framed within the ‘be kind’ context and a desire to catch up , without thought of unintended consequences. Hope the new hesitancy has an effect ,no govt department wants to be centre to another scandal around the inappropriate treatment of vulnerable people.

@MargaretBall

Great podcast , I imagine Sean moncrieff has a wider audience than Twitter .The law in Ireland on self ID was very much framed within the ‘be kind’ context and a desire to catch up , without thought of unintended consequences. Hope the new hesitancy has an effect ,no govt department wants to be centre to another scandal around the inappropriate treatment of vulnerable people.

Unfortunately, that is what's coming down the line, only it will take years for people to wake up to the reality of it. Our government don't care about scandal after scandal - they are like Teflon now, it just bounces off them.

'Lessons will be learned', blah blah...isn't that what they alway say. But they never are.

I can't believe we are waiting for the worst case scenario with all of this. Self ID was never considered in the context of women and girls and our need for separate spaces, only trans people's feelings.

How did they not think it would impact women if all men had to do was fill out a form and have full access to female spaces? Any rational person can see there is major safeguarding issues. How can they think that 16 year olds can make life changing decisions to mutilate their bodies, and not be allowed to explore other options?

The question I have regarding all of this, is why now? Why is conversion therapy suddenly such a huge issue that needs legislation change?
Same with the Hate Crime bill coming down the line...why now?

The cynical part of me sees both of these laws as shoring up the gender ideology mantra and not allowing discussion or questioning.

If you misgender someone (i.e. you are a non believer) then you can be charged with a hate crime. If you think that a child struggling with gender identity may have other issues to be explored, you are not allowed to bring that up in a therapeutic setting, or you are breaking the law.

None of this is for gay and lesbian rights, this is all for the trans agenda. It's not a coincidence that these laws are also being revised or drafted in several other countries simultaneously.

[quote GrainneMhaol]This letter was in yesterday

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/conversion-therapies-bill-1.4644814?mode=amp[/quote]
That letter is very interesting, and is basically common sense.
Conversion therapy is, of course, appalling. But there is no evidence that it is common place in Ireland. Why then do political parties feel the need to bring legislation now?
My suspicion is that this is ALL about affirmation of gender identity. The question is why has this become such an important issue for these political parties, when cases such as Kiera Bell show that this will eventually blow up in their faces?
If f 80% of gender questioning children eventually realise that they are gay, surely affirmation only of gender identity is a form of conversation therapy in itself?

Ah, so that explains why I saw some eejit on Twitter saying that he fervently hoped the Irish Times would go out of business forever and everyone there would be fired for printing 'that article on Monday'.

So this is the article he meant... honestly a ridiculous response to an entirely reasonable piece. The linked-to Twitter posts upthread are just as daft. Why so people get so fired up about this single issue? In the middle of a pandemic, a jobs crisis, a climate change crisis? Puzzling...

@HeirloomTomato

Ah, so that explains why I saw some eejit on Twitter saying that he fervently hoped the Irish Times would go out of business forever and everyone there would be fired for printing 'that article on Monday'.

So this is the article he meant... honestly a ridiculous response to an entirely reasonable piece. The linked-to Twitter posts upthread are just as daft. Why so people get so fired up about this single issue? In the middle of a pandemic, a jobs crisis, a climate change crisis? Puzzling...

Because they've been indoctrinated into an ideology that cannot be challenged. Any questioning of it means they lash out aggressively, as it challenges their worldview. Very immature IMO.

I do think many of these young foot soldiers peddling this will look back and cringe at the level of nonsense. But that won't be for years yet. And in the meantime, there is so much damage being done.

And yes to the ridiculousness of wanting a newspaper to go bankrupt because they dare to print an opposing viewpoint.

How do these people deal with actual life, where others will inevitably disagree?