Advice please! Sex vs Gender in work training module

[Pixilicious]

Hi all, I've stuck me head above the parpet at work and challenged the use of Gender in place of sex in some D&I learning that has been rolled out. I've been asked to comment on the following scenario and want to go back with a suggestion of how this could be worded better - suggestions please:

"What I would encourage you to do next time is consider that football is a sport for all, and that gender equality is a human right. Your conversation in the office can be heard by others outside of your group that would consider your comments offensive and discriminatory."

Is gender equality a human right? If so defined by who? and is equality based on sex also a human right?

Estimates of gender incongruence clearly don't translate to the GPG as non binary is a youth movement in the main and there isn't a pay gap under 40, and a passport change or documentation is needed to change the record which means the oft quoted Phillip Bunce whose own admission is non binary is unlikely to have a female passport etc, along with many other men that have a similar approach to life.

It would be a mistake to believe that 'non-binary' is a youth-led movement. Its origins are within the middle-aged middle class, Queer theorists etc. The explicit political intentions of the movement to, 'smash the binary' required the adoption/mobilisation by young people.

GPG

1. Reporting was brought in due to pay gap due to sex. Why they used gender- because that's been commonly used to mean the same as sex for years- or because they wanted self ID is anyone's guess
2. If self ID then it's yet another info gathering exercise that would benefit more people if they recorded sex and gender. It's often reported that trans people have trouble getting jobs, are discriminated against. I have no doubt that happens. If the collect both they can see-

Female Vs male Trans Vs others, could also see if transwomen / transmen were earning in line with their acquired gender. Do TM get paid aligned with males? Etc etc

Only issue would be numbers and whether those stats could be reported on due to sample size. They could collect and do aggregation across all the info though.

The fact that collecting both sex and gender would mean outcomes etc for trans people could be analysed and that would be really beneficial for that group is always a hard no.

That's illogical.

Also with non binary and other identities that are not TW/ TM.

plenty of people are selecting them in all sorts of situations.

Additionally. GPG reporting is via payroll and I suspect that loads of trans people don't think to change. And of course for non binary identities I would be amazed if options other than M/F are even on the system.

1. Gender is commonly and frequently used as a synonym for sex, and sex is commonly used as a synonym for gender.
2. No data is "collected" for the GPG, it's data that all companies already have for other purposes.

People who want to can answer the same to both sex and identity information gathering irrespective of what you ask in an employment context. In practice without the GPG nothing is asked as the regulation introduced is based on companies using existing data. No requirement to count how many people have changed from male to female or vice versa was recorded in the report on the consultation on the regulation.
The consultation is available on line.

Yes I know. I just pointed out it comes from payroll.

You seem to have missed the points I made in my post.

I've just done my employer's EDI training and they've conflated sex and gender throughout. I've reported back.

I'd also take issue with this:

Your conversation in the office can be heard by others outside of your group that would consider your comments offensive and discriminatory.

Which sounds very much like they're saying it's fine to be discriminatory and offensive, so long as only other racists/homophobes/sexists can hear you!

The whole paragraph is a combination of nonsensical and factually wrong. I think they should scrap the whole think and start again, frankly.

@NiceGerbil

Yes I know. I just pointed out it comes from payroll.

You seem to have missed the points I made in my post.

I did indeed miss your second post.

I have to admit, this has confused me a bit 'when trans women transition, their salaries adjust to the female side of the gender pay gap, so maybe gender pay gap is the appropriate term? Discrimination happens based on perceptions others hold of you and the associated prejudice/expectations.

My understanding of the gender pay gap that it was caused by some of the following things (not a complete list, just some of the things I can think of) -

• women being more likely to be in lower paid 'caring' roles such as childcare and community care
• having to take time off due to pregnancy/childbearing and the associated impact on their career progression/promotions/wage rises etc
• for those who decide to become SAHM, the difficulties in getting back into their careers due to having gaps in their work history and often having to take lower paid jobs which fit in with childcare needs
• women being more likely to go part time due to childcare needs
• women being less likely to ask for a high salary than men/less likely to aggressively sell themselves in interviews (I'm not sure of the evidence around that - it's just based on what I've read in newspapers etc).

Are these things likely to affect a transwoman (particularly one who transitions after establishing their career) and move their salaries to the 'female side of the gender pay gap' or am I missing something?

No, I think you are stating the obvious as if it's some sort of killer argument.

No, I was asking a genuine question.

Strange argument though.

'when trans women transition, their salaries adjust to the female side of the gender pay gap, so maybe gender pay gap is the appropriate term? Discrimination happens based on perceptions others hold of you and the associated prejudice/expectations.

What?! No way.

If in the same job as pre transition then no way will their salaries be reduced!.

1. Illegal straight to tribunal/ court
2. Illegal massive reputational damage to company
3. Other employees would be outraged and many would look for other jobs because wtf they just reduced someone's salary?! Shit company to work for

And of course.

1. When changing jobs your salary expectations and existing renumeration are negotiated
2. A massive chunk of the reason women are paid less is to do with sex. Fears about pregnancy and vanishing for a year. Complexity around part time requests, how to cover the loss of hours
3. Stereotypes about mothers being less engaged with work once they have kids
4. Stereotypes about women getting calls from school/ need to go to play/ doc appts for kids/ failed childcare/ child is ill causing concern about attendance
5. A massive number of women lose their jobs every year because Pg. Still.

And

1. Harder to conclude but ideas around worth capability etc. Women are often rewarded on what's delivered, men on potential.

And.

1. Time out while kids are young means you don't get salary increases etc. So often when women go back. Irrespective of SKE. they are on a salary that is lower than equivalent men and it's really really hard to get back up to where they are. Pretty much impossible in same role. Often hard even if changing jobs.

I also doubt that transmen get automatic pay increases.

Just thought- when does this happen? When they come out as trans? When they are at a certain point in transition? When name change is official in systems?

What happens for transpeople who prefer to present as the usual for their sex? Or neutrally?

You also assume that all/ majority of trans people who change name clothes etc will be read as the sex/ gender (?) they have transitioned to. That won't happen in their existing work obv. I'm not sure in real life that's true though. Transwoman often talk about 'passing privilege'. Do you not agree that's a thing?

It was wasn't you who wrote that Fitt. She wasn't responding to you I don't think and nor was I just now.

To clarify, putting aside the actual pregnancy/childbirth aspect of it, are transwomen less likely to push themselves forward in interviews/pay negotiations once they have transitioned, for example?

My confusion with the poster I quoted was that they claimed Discrimination happens based on perceptions others hold of you and the associated prejudice/expectations. If a transwoman does experience a gender pay gap (and if the above examples don't apply), then how does this discrimination manifest itself? Is it due to discrimination at interview stage that there is less choice in terms of career choice/progression? Because as NiceGerbil has mentioned, it is be difficult to see how it would manifest itself if someone transitioned while in an established career.

'To clarify, putting aside the actual pregnancy/childbirth aspect of it,'

It's not right to just put that to one side! We're discussing GPG and that's the primary reason when women are paid less than equivalent men'

'are transwomen less likely to push themselves forward in interviews/pay negotiations once they have transitioned, for example?'

No idea.
Large dependency on personality. The idea all men are confident and push and women don't is a massive generalisation.
There's also more subtle stuff going on eg

1. Men who ask for more/ really high levels asked for tend to be seen as confident, understand negotiation etc

2 women who do the same are often seen as pushy, arrogant etc

Because if this there's a factor that while men are subconsciously aware that there are expected to ask for lots and it won't harm how managers etc view them,
Women know at some level how it will go down. This is often due to experience of having tried in the past.

Pay gaps often come out as well. Drunk work conversations, comments about tax levels, details accidentally being seen. And I know from experience that when you find out you're on 30% less than the men who do the same job and get similar or worse perf reviews. It's pretty much impossible to do anything.
It used to be contractually not allowed to disclose.
And otherwise there are plenty of things that can draw on to explain it away.

The best way to find out about pay levels is to move to collecting sex and gender for pay gap. Although it won't happen as would be a big job for companies on top of what they were already doing for this. Or would need in guessing the vast majority of payroll software to be updated and rolled out.

'Because as NiceGerbil has mentioned, it is be difficult to see how it would manifest itself if someone transitioned while in an established career.'

And in I'm guessing plenty of industries, once you get to maybe middle mgmt and definitely higher levels. Loads of people around the industry in your part of that industry know who you are anyway.
So even if you vanished for a couple years, fully transitioned and were impossible to notice were trans (voice walk etc etc).

Then as soon as you came back it would be super obvious. I mean people who knew you well would surely still recognise you. And you wouldn't ditch all your past experience from CV as would struggle to get any job. Joining new company at any level with people mgnt etc up. The new lead X would have their experience in the sector shared.

It's not right to just put that to one side! We're discussing GPG and that's the primary reason when women are paid less than equivalent men'

I entirely agree with you - perhaps that was worded badly. I meant specifically in the context of the claim by a pp that transwomen experience a gender pay gap due to discrimination. Given that obviously they will not be affected by pregnancy and childbirth and probably not due to childcare needs, I was trying to work out how that works in practice - how do they experience the gender pay gap without these coming into play. I may be trying to understand something which doesn't exist in reality but I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt.

It's all speculation. In the end there are no stats or studies afaik.

Thinking about it, there would have to be a lot of very specific factors that would all need to be in play for it to happen I'm sure.