Physical differences between the male and female body that justify sex-segregated sport. Shall we make a list?

[flashbac]

The ones I know of:

• Males have bigger lungs
• Increased bone density
• Male pelvis shape making angle of legs straighter hence increasing running speed and stamina
• more muscle mass

I agree there are interesting discussions @Waitwhat23, I just don't tend to head over there very often and preferred the one board before. Because it's all relevant and all should be in one place together. It seems to be fairly light in traffic over there too.

This partly explains the reason men are more successful as jockeys;

'Oxygen uptake in respiratory muscles differs between men and women during exercise''
Muscles necessary for breathing need a greater amount of oxygen in women than in men, according to a study published today in The Journal of Physiology.
www.physoc.org/news_article/oxygen-uptake-in-respiratory-muscles-differs-between-men-and-women-during-exercise/

I think when people hear ‘women’ in sport they have a default image of a healthy fit 22 year old runner and they don’t begin to think about pregnant women, breastfeeding women (or just postpartum), women going through illness or treatment (like ivf) menopausal women, even I guess disabled/deaf/blind women, etc.

They definitely don’t follow through that this means ‘compete with anyone who identifies or stay home’

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I think this has what you need ;)

This is a good graphic illustration of the different. I had no idea about the higher haemoglobin levels in men.

Inebriati I thought the jockey thing was bog standard sexism?

The reason this is a wider issue for feminists and women in general.

Is that pushing the idea that there are no real physical differences between men and women. That eg same height weight no difference in power strength.

The logical conclusion is that when men attack women then women are not actually fundamentally vulnerable.

Loads of rape laws around the world include that she can show she tried to fight him off.

Propagating the ', fact' that we are not physically vulnerable due to our sex. Brgd6 the question. Why didn't you fight him off?

Our society is already failing with this crime. Criminal justice system terrible stats. Massive problems.
Amongst general public rape myths as popular as ever.

If. IF. the idea that we are not essentially weaker physically than men gets traction. Then the consequences logically are massive.

Add in the keeness in general to find any reason that the man didn't do anything wrong. If sports in general say yep. No advantage. I suspect it would have consequences for victims of VAWG super fast.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

We shouldn't have to justify it at all.

Everyone on the planet knows why sports are segregated by sex.

We know the difference between males and females.

Some people want to pretend that a subset of males suddenly stop being male by saying some words.

They can fuck off.

But we do have to justify it, though.

That’s the entire problem.

The changes were made. To things that have been essentially set in stone for .. ever?
And now we have to try and argue to get what we had.

That's just misogyny.

Men are priority.

It's gone so far and govts media etc all on board.

We've had rapists in women's prisons.

That didn't change anything when it was highlighted.

The misogyny that meant so many things were altered with no consultation. No risk assessment. No info things saying this has changed.

No thought or concern at all for girls/ women.

That's massive.

I'm not confident tbh.

I mean fuck the list.

Just go to a bog standard local and ask the drinkers. Man and woman same age size and physical activity.

Get in a physical fight.

Who comes off worse.

99.9% of the world's population know this.

To alter that. Get the idea it's a fair fight accepted.

That's benefits men whether directly or indirectly, across the board.

And a lot of men feel resentful. Whether openly or buried. Of women and girls.

So that's not good.

@femaleandlearning , can you post a link to that chart? It looks interesting, but I can't read the screenshot, thx

Men have quicker auditory and visual reflexes, so are quicker at starts (eg in sprints) and have better hand eye coordination.

Even bigger advantage when it's combined with more muscle strength / more explosive muscle power etc.

[quote oldwomanwhoruns]@femaleandlearning , can you post a link to that chart? It looks interesting, but I can't read the screenshot, thx[/quote]
twitter.com/Unity_MoT/status/1407697045897592834
It was shared on Twitter by another user on here on another thread on 24 June.
This is the academic journal it uses the data from. I've not verified which section the data comes from. I've downloaded the image this time, before it was a screen shot so hopefully when you zoom in the text will be clearer.
academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/803/5052770

And here is the abstract and essential points.
Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance
David J Handelsman, Angelica L Hirschberg, Stephane Bermon
Issue Section: Reproductive Biology and Sex-Based Medicine
Endocrine Reviews, Volume 39, Issue 5, October 2018, Pages 803–829, doi.org/10.1210/er.2018-00020

Abstract
Elite athletic competitions have separate male and female events due to men’s physical advantages in strength, speed, and endurance so that a protected female category with objective entry criteria is required. Prior to puberty, there is no sex difference in circulating testosterone concentrations or athletic performance, but from puberty onward a clear sex difference in athletic performance emerges as circulating testosterone concentrations rise in men because testes produce 30 times more testosterone than before puberty with circulating testosterone exceeding 15-fold that of women at any age. There is a wide sex difference in circulating testosterone concentrations and a reproducible dose-response relationship between circulating testosterone and muscle mass and strength as well as circulating hemoglobin in both men and women. These dichotomies largely account for the sex differences in muscle mass and strength and circulating hemoglobin levels that result in at least an 8% to 12% ergogenic advantage in men. Suppression of elevated circulating testosterone of hyperandrogenic athletes results in negative effects on performance, which are reversed when suppression ceases. Based on the nonoverlapping, bimodal distribution of circulating testosterone concentration (measured by liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry)—and making an allowance for women with mild hyperandrogenism, notably women with polycystic ovary syndrome (who are overrepresented in elite athletics)—the appropriate eligibility criterion for female athletic events should be a circulating testosterone of

@NiceGerbil

The reason this is a wider issue for feminists and women in general.

Is that pushing the idea that there are no real physical differences between men and women. That eg same height weight no difference in power strength.

The logical conclusion is that when men attack women then women are not actually fundamentally vulnerable.

Loads of rape laws around the world include that she can show she tried to fight him off.

Propagating the ', fact' that we are not physically vulnerable due to our sex. Brgd6 the question. Why didn't you fight him off?

Our society is already failing with this crime. Criminal justice system terrible stats. Massive problems.
Amongst general public rape myths as popular as ever.

If. IF. the idea that we are not essentially weaker physically than men gets traction. Then the consequences logically are massive.

Add in the keeness in general to find any reason that the man didn't do anything wrong. If sports in general say yep. No advantage. I suspect it would have consequences for victims of VAWG super fast.

That's a really good point. It's not just about sports. It also explains why women tend to freeze (instead of flight or fight) when attacked. It's safer as we can't outrun or fight them effectively due to our physical differences.

Sorry, I dont mean it literally safer. It's the auto response decision we might make when under threat.

Archery, mentioned elsewhwhere in reference to a transwoman archer at the Olympics, is an interesting case.

The technique male and female archers are trained to use is subtly different and certainly favours the male.

Wee Andy's observation in "Gregory's Girl" may have been wide of the mark regards women in football, but would be spot on when it comes to Archery:

"Their tits get in the way...."

Thx @femaleandlearning , I was after that other picture - the 'fit but unequal' , more my sort of level
All that testosterone stuff is interesting, but the basic premise right at the top of the article is the killer: and is legally recognised as female. So the premise of their argument is wrong, as Helen Joyce would say.

Sorry! Though I'm sure some more technical users can digest that journal! The Fit but unequal was shared on Twitter but was in the Washington Post. I can't access the direct link anymore due to being in Europe (?). The name Barbara Bushman is mentioned.

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind THIS. How every woman on earth isn’t up in arms about it I don’t know

I know I'm boring and banging the same drum.

But after years of this I've really totally understood.

Whatever proof/ evidence etc supplied it will make no difference.

They are working from a belief and emotional standpoint.

Even if say a study of every single human in the world was done over 70 years, that showed that men and women are different physiologically and that (as everyone knows) at a group level we are not as physically strong etc. And it included every sport every activity everything.

It wouldn't be enough.

If there was any fairness, or view of women and girls being of even minor importance. Then things would have been considered debated etc for a long time before any (or no) changes were made to the fundamental and forever knowledge that men as a group pose a risk to women as s group. And that at group level they are physically bigger and stronger.

Facts are not going to make a dent.

This is a very different type of situation.