If TWAW...

[DdraigGoch]

...then shouldn't the testosterone limits be the same for "all women"? Surely it's not affirming if TW aren't judged to the same standard as "other women".

Very good point.

That argument is made by some, including McKinnon. Because there is no limit for women. So if women can compete with any natural testosterone level, then so should transwomen. Because their level is a "natural level for women". Transwomen should not be required to lower their testosterone.

I agree that they shouldn't be required to lower their testosterone - that is daft. They shouldn't be allowed to compete at all, because they're male, and a male body is an advantage regardless of testosterone.

If you think there's a limit for women, it's possible you're confused by all the lying coverage of the DSD athletes, who are described as "women with high natural testosterone". They're male with standard male levels, and are exceeding the limits for male DSD athletes - the rules are similar to those for transwomen - they can compete if they lower. If they were female, the limits would not apply.

But again, the rule for those DSD athletes is wrong - they shouldn't be allowed to compete either, because they also have a male body advantage, regardless of testosterone level.

More to the point, if TWAW how are they trans

Yep. I’m not sure how to respond to this tbh, because it’s all got so ridiculous. But if TWAW then at least Roviel Detenamo will have another shot at being an Olympian in 3 years time - because the superior competition that knocked her out this year, may well be in the midst of perimenopause, which as we know can debilitate women (much like the rest of their lives, relating to sexual and reproductive health). There is such a lack of research on this period of life for women, because women just don’t matter. This period will surely affect her athletic performance, because the medical sector has very little help, solutions and empathy for women going through this phase of their life.

So is there a place for trans-athletes in the paralympic games?

The 'para' is the para in parachute or paralegal. It means alongside. It is nothing to do with paraplegia. The Paralympics are the equal of the Olympics in status in every respect.

The aim of the Paralympic movement laid down in the IPC Charter is to provide a platform for elite athletes with impairments and disabilities to excel.

So could there be a new category?

Practically, Yes. Politically, hmmmmmmm.

@NecessaryScene

That argument is made by some, including McKinnon. Because there is no limit for women. So if women can compete with any natural testosterone level, then so should transwomen. Because their level is a "natural level for women". Transwomen should not be required to lower their testosterone.

I agree that they shouldn't be required to lower their testosterone - that is daft. They shouldn't be allowed to compete at all, because they're male, and a male body is an advantage regardless of testosterone.

If you think there's a limit for women, it's possible you're confused by all the lying coverage of the DSD athletes, who are described as "women with high natural testosterone". They're male with standard male levels, and are exceeding the limits for male DSD athletes - the rules are similar to those for transwomen - they can compete if they lower. If they were female, the limits would not apply.

But again, the rule for those DSD athletes is wrong - they shouldn't be allowed to compete either, because they also have a male body advantage, regardless of testosterone level.

Ah, I was assuming that there must be some kind of testosterone limit in place to detect East German-style doping.

Ah, well, they probably as part of their doping check process have some T level that would trigger investigation, but for either males or females there is no limit if it can be shown to be natural, not exogenous.

The limits only occur in these daft attempts to squeeze trans or DSD males into female sports. A dumb "compromise". Which is indeed transphobic, by TWAW logic.

If TWAW and hormones make no difference at all, then how come they WANT or NEED cross sex hormones to transition? Could it be because hormones actually DO play a role in how humans function and look?
How odd.
They either matter or they don't.

If transwomen are women then women must be transwomen too?

...no one would listen to a word they said and their demands would have been laughed at and ignored.

I've been pondering lately how we've managed to sleepwalk into where we are now. How have people been so duped? Many people are waking up to the reality and the scales are falling, but why were the scales there in the first place?

Two years ago hearing about "pregnant men" I would've quite happily nodded along thinking "yes, yes of course men can be pregnant and have babies" How did I never come to the point of going "Hmm, I did GCSE biology and I'm pretty sure that men having babies would've been covered. I should maybe do a bit of research because that just doesn't make sense" Nope, just blindly went along with it. I'm hardly brain of Britain but how could I have been so dumb?

I just accepted that yes, TWAW of course they are. Anyone who feels like a woman is one. How did I never question "what does a woman feel like?" Possibly the fact that I've never given any thought to feeling like a women - it's just my reality - but that I knew I wasn't a man, meant that other people felt or didn't feel like their reality. (Don't know if that makes sense, it does in my head)

A story in the Daily Mail about male born people in women's prisons would've been hand waved away with "Fucking Fail, making shit up again" It's definitely a lie and against the law Surely if it was true the Guardian would cover it. They're my tribe, we are the good guys.

I guess the last example is slightly different because that's stuff being overtly fed to us by the media with certain things being deliberately hidden. But is the other stuff also a symptom of that? Was I just a thicky? It's like some weird brainwashing experiment.

I don't want to keep rambling but does anybody have any ideas how we got to the stage that seemingly intelligent people believe such nonsense? While I'm here, a big thanks to the women of the naughty corner (and a particular RL friend) for making my eyes open, it's odd that once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Gah. I wanted to start my own thread there. Maybe I am just a thicky afterall

Many people sleepwalked into it, I've come to think, because women don't count. Not at all. Their feelings and needs and situation are worth as much consideration as a cow's. Or maybe a hamster's? Not sure.

And then, all those people for whom women don't exist start asserting nonsense with total conviction. A normal person hears that and thinks "They must know what they're talking about. They're so convinced!" Which may be why you didn't question it right away?

Then, after a while, when the contradictions pile up in huge thickets, most people say, "Wait. Wait! S'all a load of bollocks!"

It's the little changes to everyday language too isn't it, just seeped into use. I was shocked by the number of people who say "assigned at birth" and think that's just normal!

If TWAW then woke men would talk over them and treat them like shit instead of fawning over them and issuing violent threats to women who disagree.

Deleted? WHY? There was literally NOTHING in my comment that was derogatory. Complete nonsense Mumsnet. I said social media and video sharing sites partly to blame for the 'acceptance' of this issue as is what is being taught in schools. I THOUGHT the legal ruling was now that we could speak freely and disagree about things if we wanted to? Apparently not. Censored for having an opinion. Cheers. Women, enjoy your slow erasure.