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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Warrior buried in women's clothes, DMA test

62 replies

Igneococcus · 02/08/2021 06:15

That Finnish warrior buried in women's clothes is a "non-binary person with an extra X chromosome". This is reaching new heights in idiocy:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/633f6690-f2f9-11eb-8f01-2c678acbb979?shareToken=1a9ca6deaed6c83e06e4207040280633

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 10/08/2021 10:00

Following, interesting thread!

nauticant · 10/08/2021 10:20

I think it's misguided for the paper authors to use the descriptor "non-binary" for this person, as while you could argue that in the literal sense of the word that does appear to be the case, the way we use the word generally is in reference to a culturally-specific phenomenon.

If you read the whole paper, filled as it is with qualifications, talking about uncertainties raised by the excavation site, and cautioning against making assumptions, to have put "The overall context of the grave indicates that it was a respected person whose gender identity may well have been non-binary." in the abstract looks more like politics than academic rigour. It's a shame, especially since they resisted such headline grabbing in the conclusion:

"The Suontaka burial has previously been interpreted as a woman buried with two swords. The grave is exceptionally equipped, with several signs of wealth and care, including prestigious furs and rare feather bedding. However, only one sword, hiltless and silver-inlaid, can be conclusively associated with the burial assemblage. The bronze-hilted sword was possibly placed in the grave some time after the burial. Our aDNA analysis suggests that the individual may have had an aneuploid male karyotype XXY (Klinefelter syndrome). These new research results indicate that even in early medieval Finland, which is often considered a masculine and warlike society, there may have been individuals who did not fit into a binary gender model. These individuals could also have been respected and considered important, and their gendered identities could be elaborately represented and remembered in the content of their burials."

NecessaryScene · 10/08/2021 10:25

I sometimes feel like these people are arguing with the voices in their heads. On the one hand they have to insist "societies have always had a very rigid gender binary", and then they flip around to "all sorts of societies had genders outside the traditional binary".

Which is it, guys?

Is the problem that you're struggling to identify the way these societies behaved? I don't think so. I think it's that this concept of "gender" is too nebulous.

I suspect you could say that in medieval Finland "there may have been individuals who did not fit into a binary floofnargle model" too...

I guess it would keep the people in Floofnargle Studies departments in work, at least.

nauticant · 10/08/2021 10:40

Although the label "non-binary" can be imposed on gender non-conformity that occurred in the past, this is a bad idea because it's a brand new concept filled with modern day thinking and being so far from having a commonly agreed meaning as to create uncertainty. They would have known to have been extremely wary of applying any other modern day cultural concept in this way.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 10/08/2021 11:17

It's Year Zero (a)history in action, misanalysed by identitarians who think their beliefs are the ultimate pan-ideology that every society which ever existed subscribed to 100%. No one could ever have thought differently, except for some t*rfs now and anyone at all who behaved in a way they personally perceive as transgressive were obviously trans or non-binary. Eternal pink jewels for girls and blue swords for boys.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 10/08/2021 11:19

Has Tutenkhamun been non-binaried yet?

nauticant · 10/08/2021 11:38

The Radio 4 programme
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ykpf was very interesting.

Having read this thread I was amused to listen to the cautions in the programme about results from ancient DNA being used for ideological reasons and how this was a characteristic of the far Right.

This was about right: "we have to be so careful we don't allow ideas of culture to bleed into biology" although (IIRC) it was from Anita Saini who is one of the science communicators who's a fan of pushing "sex isn't binary because intersex".

nauticant · 10/08/2021 11:40

Bah. Not Anita, Angela Saini.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 10/08/2021 11:56

@Alltheprettyseahorses

Has Tutenkhamun been non-binaried yet?
Akhenaten has.

Seeing as 'he' had breasts and hips going by the statues, seems more likely to me that 'he' was a she and the children were fathered by a suitable male. Can't be having lesbians in positions of power, though. Must have been a man. A man with any number of DSDs or a need to present as female. But never, ever, a gay woman.

KittenKong · 10/08/2021 13:02

From a dynasty who had siblings marry siblings (and procreate) and thought they were gods... what’s a bit of lesbianism?

NeverDropYourMooncup · 10/08/2021 13:19

@KittenKong

From a dynasty who had siblings marry siblings (and procreate) and thought they were gods... what’s a bit of lesbianism?
Anathema to the Victorian, Edwardian, Post War and apparently the Post Sex era white men who set the discourse, I think.

'There's these statues of a ruler who looks like a woman. Can't be a woman, though, as they were a) a ruler, b) had a wife and c) had children. Ergo, they simply have to be a medically malfunctioning male in all ways but reproductively, QED. No women here, nothing to see that could imply that homosexuality was OK we'll go to Ancient Greece and Rome for that as the idea of women being solely brood mares and true love was between an older and younger man because that suits us better

I'm not a linguist or historian (which is obvious, as there's no way I would have been able to make my way through academia with independent thoughts), but interpreting job titles as intrinsically meaning Male could easily be an artefact of the lens they were looking though. Perhaps the translation of certain words led them to choose 'King' and 'Queen' (and thereby Ruler with a Penis and their sidebird) when the word meant Ruler and we've therefore been led to believe that Pharaoh meant Man because the translators originally couldn't conceive of it meaning anything else?

KittenKong · 10/08/2021 13:35

You haven’t seen the histrionics that some had had around the fake beard and penis worn by mummies (male and female I believe) - part of the funeral ceremony. Just a ‘divine symbol’. Nothing more.

Queen Elizabeth referred to herself as a Prince - I saw a programme about her and yes it just had include the theory that she was was actually male or DSD. Sigh. Because a boring old womanly woman couldn’t possibly have ruled, on no...

My favourite ‘Egyptian’ fun fact. There was much pants wetting when Remi Malik played the ancient equation in Night at the Museum, and so was photographer in full Pharaoh garb. The twitterati got very upset because... ‘cultural appropriation! How dare he!’. Until it was pointed out the Remi is... Egyptian (with a wee bit of Greek). This still amuses me.

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