Olympics - a very simple solution

[MrsTerryPratchett]

It seems to me that there is a very simple solution to the Olympic issue. Ironically given to us by sport. 'Freestyle' in swimming means you can swim any stroke you like. But everyone swims the crawl because it's the fastest.

In the Olympics currently there is someone non binary in women's events and at least one trans woman in the women's. Plus women with DSD included in some women's events but not others.

Why can't 'men's' now be 'freestyle'? Trans, DSD and non-binary people can all compete with no levels and limits, No safety concerns, no exclusion, women's sports are preserved but everyone competes. No intrusive tests or questions.

I want everyone included. GC women are often punted as exclusionary and that makes me sad. Sports for all, fairly and inclusively. I mean just like freestyle, the biological men will just all win, but it is inclusive.

Because it doesn't offer validation, the thrill of being in women's spaces, or the same chance of winning.

There is that. But the NB footballer doesn't get that. And trans men don't either, because there's none at the Olympics.

I always think it's better to say what you want (freestyle) rather than what you don't want (women excluded from sports).

You can come up with all the kind, well thought out sensible solutions you can op, but you'll still get called transphobic at the end of the day.

You can't seriously believe that this was best way bright young people paid thousands and thousands of pounds to be inclusive could come up with?
They're not trying to be fair. That's why testosterone levels have been paraded out as the great equaliser. Testosterone that would have a female athlete disqualified for doping.
Not because it's fair. But because it allows as many individuals that want to through the door with absolutely minimal effort, relying on public ignorance to bolster it.

I have a simpler solution.

Women said no.

It's only women that seem to not want women to be excluded.

The people in charge seem quite content unfortunately.

Turning the men’s into an open competition is a solution offered by many. That keeps the women’s category closed and inclusive to women only but as PP had said it’s not wanted by trans activists.

Interestingly there is a trans woman who I won’t name as their mum monitors these boards who is currently racing in men’s cycling and it’s never mentioned by anyone wanting “inclusive sport” despite it being just that - a gender diverse athlete welcomed back in their sport post-transition.

The thing is, many men's sports, particularly team ones, are already freestyle, as you describe. People just assume they're men's because there are no women at top level.

The same would be true at the Olympics. Nothing would really change.

I'm actually not sure there are any men's events transwomen would be excluded from by rules. I believe McKinnon claimed that was the case once, suggesting it's probably not true.

And that's how it works for trans men. They can compete but will never make it high levels. Like me because of being old, unfit and a bit chubby.

@Quadzilla

Turning the men’s into an open competition is a solution offered by many. That keeps the women’s category closed and inclusive to women only but as PP had said it’s not wanted by trans activists.

Interestingly there is a trans woman who I won’t name as their mum monitors these boards who is currently racing in men’s cycling and it’s never mentioned by anyone wanting “inclusive sport” despite it being just that - a gender diverse athlete welcomed back in their sport post-transition.

How refreshing. If only everyone came equipped with a moral compass.

I’m pretty sure they’re only in the men’s until their testosterone drops and allows them to compete with women.
I do hope I’m wrong though as it is refreshing and should be celebrated.

@NecessaryScene

The thing is, many men's sports, particularly team ones, are already freestyle, as you describe. People just assume they're men's because there are no women at top level.

The same would be true at the Olympics. Nothing would really change.

I'm actually not sure there are any men's events transwomen would be excluded from by rules. I believe McKinnon claimed that was the case once, suggesting it's probably not true.

Which sports are these do you know? I've only seen ones on the Olympics with mens and womens categories.

The situation is ridiculous. The competitions have been divided based on biological sex, because that is responsible for the performance differences, they have never been divided by gender identity. It's far more sensible, fair, and more consistent with the facts from the research we have so far, to continue to divide competitions by sex (and a person of any gender identity can compete, as long as they are in the correct sex category and aren't taking banned substances like testosterone).

Having some athletes competing on the basis of sex (there is no requirement for any athlete competing in their sex category to fulfil a gender identity requirement) and some competing in the wrong sex category on the basis of gender identity is illogical, unscientific and unfair. It just makes a mockery of the categories and the sport.

It's not meant to be fair. That chap from the IOC confirmed it.

"There is some research, but it depends on whether you are coming from the view of inclusion as the first priority or absolute fairness to the nth degree being the priority."

I think many women are forgetting that women as a class are there to provide a service.

Tut.

Didn't her recommend women train harder? I'm sure I read that.

I see that the architect of this catastrophe (who conducted the dire "research" involving 8? athletes including themselves) that the IOC used to allow born males access to women's sport has commented that Hubbard's presence may be seen by history as "less than ideal"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9849979/Advisor-trans-athletes-says-history-judge-Laurel-Hubbards-debut-ideal.html#comments

Good point Datun. The sports bodies (except World Rugby) don't care about fairness or safety for women. They are continuing to discriminate against women despite all the scientific evidence. They are sexist to the core.

The solution is to segregate by sex. It is sex that confers the advantage/disadvantage. There are only two sexes.

There should be acceptance of transwomen competing in the men's section and transmen competing in the women's section. The only argument against this is that it doesn't validate the fantasy that you can magically change into a man/woman just by saying that you are one.

Not so simple - you can’t swim back, fly or breast on a freestyle leg in a medley swim.

Simple - no males in female sports categories.

Or the other simple solution would have been to set the testosterone level for women's sports at actual women's level, not way over.

Can't get down low enough? Fine, compete with men.

@Kittii wouldn't trans men on testosterone be excluded by this though, due to doping regs?

@TheMissingMango

Or the other simple solution would have been to set the testosterone level for women's sports at actual women's level, not way over.

Can't get down low enough? Fine, compete with men.

That is also a very simple solution. Although you'd also have to do lung volume, muscles and other markers.

@Splendo yes if they take over the permitted limit of testosterone they would not be able to compete in the women's section. Same as with any other performance-enhancing drug.

Which sports are these do you know? I've only seen ones on the Olympics with mens and womens categories.

Late answer to this. This is one of those factoids I've not seen detailed digging on. It seems it may be a kind of a historical accident which way a sport ends up - are they male-only by rule, or male-only by practice/biological reality. The end effect is basically indistinguishable.

I think the Olympics are really male/female. Other references I've seen are US-centric, so I believe ice hockey (NHL) is not male-only, and basketball (NBA) isn't.

Here's an article about a female basketball player:

Luisa Harris

Rarely in the annals of NBA history does a team pick a six-foot-three-inch center in the draft; even more rare does an NBA team draft a woman. But that is what the New Orleans Jazz did in the 1977 draft.

With the 137th pick in the 1977 draft the New Orleans Jazz drafted Lusia Harris. Harris was a well known product in the bayou having been a star at near by Delta State. While attended college in Cleveland, Mississippi, Harris had lead the Lady Statemen to 3 NCAA titles. She finished her career at Delta State as one of the winningest college players in history and was widely considered the best female player in the country.

Never actually ended up playing for the "men's" team, but nothing in the rules prevented it.