GC newbie

[Xlalalaladdd]

Hi all. First thread on here, as I've only recently done more reading and thinking about GC feminism, and realise that my feminism aligns with it. I'm also appalled at the rampant misogyny aimed at women for speaking about it, even if only to raise the issue.

Like many, if not most, of you, I respect trans rights and trans people and wouldn't have ever considered myself transphobic. However, when chatting to a group of my (very educated and usually liberal) friends, I was told that my opinions were hateful and I was aligning myself with transphobes and basically shut down. I really don't think I could have possibly said anything hateful, just raised the issue of safe spaces/ prisons and the issue of how far along someone is in the trans process.

My question is, how do I continue to stand up for women's rights without being labelled a transphobe by even close female friends? People wanting to change gender, be non binary etc doesn't bother me, and I would always respect people's names, and 99% of times it doesn't matter to me what gender people say they are, but I just think there issues that should be debated for women's safety.
Sigh. Sorry if that's all really obvious to you. I'm new to this, and have never considered myself a bigot, and it's freaked me out a bit!

You might find this short film about "bigoteering" interesting.

Simple answer is - you can't.

If you stand up for women's rights in any capacity, even bending over backwards with your language and offering compromises up the wazoo, you will be called transphobic.

The only thing you can do is be silent, or keep on speaking and make your peace with being called names. It's horrible, of course, but I'd rather you knew what you'll face than be ground into dust by the bullies because you hoped they gave a crap.

Fwiw, the insults do tend to lose their sting pretty quickly, and this is why it's important to make sure you've done your research so when you do have moments when the name calling gets to you, you can draw on your own integrity because in the end, that's what matters.

The answer is you cant. That is how the debate has been framed.

It'd help if I put the link

My question is, how do I continue to stand up for women's rights without being labelled a transphobe by even close female friends?

There's no sure-fire way to avoid this. If someone thinks calling someone a transphobe is a way to win a point, they'll do it.

Many people are currently in an environment where that works. And lacking real arguments, lashing out like that is likely all some people on the other side have. They'll just want the discussion to go away, so it's a tactic to end the discussion.

In the short term, you as an individual just have to not care.

In the longer term, we collectively have to shift the debate enough that it doesn't work as a debating tactic, so people don't reflexively resort to it. We just tune out accusations of "transphobia" as background noise. Increasingly everyone will, and it will hold no currency.

Good recent article on this: It’s still possible to “cancel” gender-critical feminists, but this strategy won’t work

What was once taboo has become mainstream, with each person and publication in the respectability chain emboldened by the outspokenness of the one before them.

Welcome, OP.

I'm afraid the bad news is that if you voice anything that is not 100% supportive of ;transwomen are women' you will be classed as transphobic. The more reasonable genderist supporters might say you are 'misguided' or in need of education, the more vociferous ones will say you are a bigot. There is always the risk of threat, doxxing, attack and even 'hate' charges, especially in Scotland.

It was this requirement for 100% adherence to the tenets that first led me to question what was going on.

And latterly I've found that the idea of it being about transpeople is just a smokescreen. Most of this movement is about dismantling women's rights, nothing more or less. Trans people are being used - weaponised, if you will - to achieve this.

The good news is that more and more women (and some men) are speaking up on the subject. I know of very VERY few people who actually have read up on the subject and agree that TWAW. And more and more people are not willing to stay silent. You can see from something like Laurel Hubbard how the vast majority of people feel on the subject.

Anyway. You're not alone. Courage calls to courage.

Welcome op, it's so hard to have the realization that your views are classed as bigoted and transphobic, especially when you have never considered yourself in that way. But the harsh reality is that is how some people will see you, I have found the names don't hurt anymore, I'm so used to be called names that they don't have any meaning anymore.
I've also found that everyone I've ever spoken to is horrified by what I'm telling them and very much disagree with the current movement. You have solid rationale and science on your side, all I've ever seen form the other side is "feelz" and that just doesn't cut it for me. People are waking up and the tide is turning, if it is safe to do so, keep speaking out, keep dripping bit of information into conversations with your friends, ask them questions that you know they will struggle to answer, the penny will drop eventually, they just probably haven't thought it through properly yet.

Thanks all. Good to have a community here.
I've never experienced such a quick shutting down of debate with the accusation of being 'hateful'. And this is from women who purport to be feminists, and to support vulnerable women. The doublethink has just shocked me.
I'm lucky in that I have no need to be directly confrontational in my own life, but nevertheless I think I'm going to have to develop a tougher hide.
Seeing prominent, liberal journalists (Hadley Freeman etc) speak up in favour of womens rights has made me feel more reassured that I'm not a secret bigot...

Many people new to the issues have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I wouldn't worry about the labels OP - that says more about the person wishing to stop you voicing your opinion than about you. Fwiw I have talked to 100s of people about this in real life and the only ones who have branded me a transphobe/TERF are (sadly) my own children who have drunk the Kool Aid at school.

OP, welcome!

It is very hard not to be labelled a trans phobe. Some transwomen are even abused for agreeing that places like prisons should be single sex. They are called the derogatory term “truscum”.

I thought I had seen it all when a TRA tweeted that a little girl who saw an exposed, semi erect penis should in a purportedly single sex space should “not have stared at people’s genitalia”.

So there we have it. Unless you are happy for little girls to be in a jacuzzi next to a naked person with a semi erect penis, some people will say that you are transphobic. The only thing the penis person has to do is to say that they are female.

When you are accused by the so-called progressive left of being transphobic, remember this article about how the left aligned themselves with the Paedophile Information Exchange in the 1970s:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26352378

It takes courage to stand up against the crowd. But when you're proved right, all these people who are calling you transphobic will suddenly go very quiet.

If it helps OP hete is a list of things that are transphobic

Spoiler alert - everything is

wingsoverscotland.com/everything-is-transphobic/

It may be an unavoidable charge, I'm afraid.

Practically, I'd advise, if you can, to make sure you're as well-versed in the issues as you can be, then try to speak to people in-person and one-on-one. The social dynamics in a group can impact how they respond. But, if they can see your face, hear your voice, and it's a private conversation, then that might help. You could give them something to read either in advance or afterwards (and then perhaps re-discuss). It won't work with everyone, and you might still lose friends, but it can be better than social media or texts. Remember that if your social media is very hostile, you can also do quite a bit of activism to support women without it being visible on a timeline, for example writing letters, responding to surveys/petitions/consultations and contributing to causes.

I'd say a realistic goal in "coming out" as gender critical may not be to immediately convince the other person, but rather to encourage dialogue, and to think a little more deeply, i.e. "I don't need you to completely agree with me, but I need you to understand that this topic is important to me: this is what I think and why. I'd like us to be able to talk about it like grown-ups, but if you decide we can't discuss it, fine. I just need you to know this is my position - in other words, I side with those women who are being monstered in the media."

If nothing else, you're leading by example. Even if you get a hostile response now, you may be giving someone else a reason to pause before they start slagging of prominent women - because now they know someone in their real life, a friend, who thinks the same. Perhaps a bit further down the road, when they're more ready, some of those people will feel they have greater permission to question this, too.

The final point: try to find like-minded women, ideally in real life. This is enormously helpful. She may be a friend who you speak to and responds "oh thank you for saying something, I've been thinking the same!" Or if you can (and restrictions allow), other ideas could be attending feminist/women's gatherings that understand these issues (for example, the FiLiA Conference in October) or connecting with a local group that you may be able to get involved in.

Prepare to be called a right wing fundamentalist Christian and a Stepford wife.

It's bollocks, btw

The goalposts about what is transphobic constantly change, so as people have already said, worry less about staying inside somebody else's narrow definitions and think for yourself.

Men are never asked to move over. It boils down to that.

Your true friends will know that you are a kind and thoughtful person who cares about equality, so try not to take your recent experience to heart. As pp have said, having one to one conversations is better when discussing a nuanced subject like this.

Ask your friends leading questions that encourage them to think it through for themselves. Some of the facts are so shocking that people might think you are exaggerating until they actually do their own research.

Yes, for sure, encourage questions.

'What is a woman' is a good one.

or: 'What does a woman share with a transwoman, in what way is a transwoman a woman?'

Or: 'should all spaces and sports be mixed sex'?

Or: 'Should women be allowed to meet and discuss their rights, even if people disagree with what they're saying?'

Or: 'Are rape and death and violence threats okay if you disagree with what someone is saying?'

I’ve found a good entry point is to talk about the unintended consequences of a drive for inclusion.

So it isn’t about trans at all - it’s about the very small minority that would abuse the situation e.g. in women’s prisons or safe spaces. And therefore those that are at more risk now which then brings in the physicality of a women’s sport like boxing.

That sets up a good conversation about not putting people at more risk for another group being safe. So we need checks and balances and a debate about the situation.

Obviously there is a LOT more to it but it has made some of the people who I’ve talked about think about the lack of debate as bad thing.

Another thing to think about is how to acknowledge that women are different. That's a real block for some, because the last couple of civil rights movements in living memory (sexuality and race) to a large extent were based on "we're all the same, really", and defeating false claims of difference. Whereas now we see problems from people pretending men and women aren't different.

Inclusion for women relies a lot on acknowledging the difference - whether it be in athletic ability for sport, or risks in prisons etc.

(Some good stuff about that from Jane Clare Jones and Helen Joyce in this interview)

Try this

@NecessaryScene

Another thing to think about is how to acknowledge that women are different. That's a real block for some, because the last couple of civil rights movements in living memory (sexuality and race) to a large extent were based on "we're all the same, really", and defeating false claims of difference. Whereas now we see problems from people pretending men and women aren't different.

Inclusion for women relies a lot on acknowledging the difference - whether it be in athletic ability for sport, or risks in prisons etc.

(Some good stuff about that from Jane Clare Jones and Helen Joyce in this interview)

This is a really important point. I’ve read someone saying that this is what makes it hard for some women. We have to admit that we are the weaker sex (physically) and we are vulnerable.

Some women don’t want to admit that. And I guess maybe some men don’t want to point that out for fear of sounding sexist.

You are what you think you are love, which is why you are here in the echo chamber 😬