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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'I don't think I should play against other women - it's not fair'

18 replies

DdraigGoch · 30/07/2021 23:28

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9845267/Pro-golfer-Alison-Perkins-raised-boy-shares-insight-trans-athlete-debate.html

Always good to hear from a TW who is happy to play in the correct category for her sex. No one is excluding TW from sport, they are perfectly welcome to compete in the male category and (as Alison shows) are not at a disadvantage in doing so.

OP posts:
DdraigGoch · 30/07/2021 23:30

Also encouraging that Loughborough University are conducting a study to find out just how performance really is affected by medical interventions.

OP posts:
sleepyhead · 31/07/2021 00:01

I was just coming on to see if this had been posted - good for her.

NiceGerbil · 31/07/2021 00:14

Nice one Alison and thank you.

I find it interesting that in general there's a choice element in play.

But it doesn't go both ways eg Jenner in USA was able to continue playing at all male golf club. And I think didn't change their sex/ gender on the form as they didn't want to stop going there. (I doubt they would have kicked Jenner out irrespective!)

CallMeNutribullet · 31/07/2021 08:08

Jenner is only a woman when it suits Jenner. Jenner also doesn't refer to themselves as lesbian in spite of being in a relationship with a woman.

OvaHere · 31/07/2021 08:49

This is still a shitty article though using all the usual nonsense phrases such as "against other women", "living as a woman" "trans female" when the correct term would be trans male because Alison is male.

The Open is, after all, one of the most prestigious and traditional competitions in men's golf, with a history stretching back to the Victorian era. Yet Alison, as her name suggests, is very much not a man.

Though born and raised a boy, she has chosen to live as a woman for more than a decade. And on that sunny day in late June, she made a little bit of history: becoming the first ever trans female to compete on the men's golf circuit.

There really isn't anything remarkable about a male person playing golf on the male circuit despite what the Daily Mail are trying to spin here.

If you read further on in the article it strikes me that Alison's main reasons for not competing in the women's competition is that despite 'transitioning' a decade ago they have not embarked on any medical transition so cannot meet the rule requirements to compete. So Alison's transition up to this point is clothing, make up and accessories.

It also seems that Alison thinks they have a good chance of succeeding in the men's competition, which stands to reason if Alison is a good golfer and the transition is just clothing and pronouns. Men's golf I expect is more lucrative.

Alison, who has been living as a woman since July 5, 2010 — she calls this her 'birthday' — is yet to take either of the stipulated medical steps, so has not yet experienced the changes wrought by hormone therapy.

But when she does, she has agreed to take part in a scientific study that will measure the effect on both her physical performance and her golf game.

It is being carried out by a team at Loughborough University with Joanna Harper, who is perhaps the world's leading academic expert on the science of trans sports and has advised the IOC.

By following the performances of Alison and several other athletes as they undergo transition, she hopes to be able to produce reliable data about the benefits they may — or may not — enjoy in various female sports.

This will, she hopes, allow governing bodies to find ways to allow trans athletes to compete without sparking allegations of unfairness.

Based on the above section it seems that Alison doesn't really have many moral qualms about taking a space in women's sport and they more than likely intend to do it at some point.

Alison can't do it at the moment due to the rules about lowering T and wants Harper to give them the go ahead because they don't want to be called a cheat. Which is missing the point that a male person taking a space from a female person is always a cheat no matter how many people you've persuaded to bend the rules for you.

In short I wouldn't be quick to praise this article or Alison because nothing I've read here makes me think that Alison cares about women in sport because as soon as Alison can get the go ahead to take a woman's place (but not be called a cheat like Hubbard because reasons) Alison will do.

LizzieSiddal · 31/07/2021 08:51

Great that Loughborough Uni are doing a study. A few short years ago I doubt that would affect been allowed!

sleepyhead · 31/07/2021 08:55

Oh. That's not so great.

I admit I didn't read all the way to the bottom because the Daily Mail language makes.my eyes itch.

I noticed the reference to Loughborough bit didn't realise it was Joanna Harper.

sleepyhead · 31/07/2021 08:57

I think Joanna Harper does "studies" though.

Unless she's become more rigorous and less prone to misrepresentation and cherry picking now that her career is a little further down the track.

Eminybob · 31/07/2021 08:57

I think its interesting that they have chosen to describe her as “being raised as a boy” rather than “born male” as it makes it sound like her parents made a decision.
But good on her for speaking out. This is what we need at the moment.

Lordamighty · 31/07/2021 09:08

Joanna Harper should be no where near studies into trans athletes in women’s sports. Their first study was a shoddy piece of work, nothing more than a series of anecdotes, involving about 8 trans women, including themselves.

BaronMunchausen · 31/07/2021 09:11

“ Though born and raised a boy, she has chosen to live as a woman for more than a decade.”

This “live as a woman” phrase is never unpacked-but is embedded in UK law.

Is it seriously just name, dress, and mascara that constitutes being a woman now?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/07/2021 09:13

I would like to see the document Loughborough university put forward to get funding for their study. If Harper is anywhere near it, I don’t be holding my breath that it’ll be academically rigorous

Yes I think I’m right not to be filled with confidence on this
www.lboro.ac.uk/news-events/news/2021/february/lgbt-historic-achievements-at-lboro/

Artichokeleaves · 31/07/2021 10:03

The phrase 'trans female' is an oxymoron.

The word 'trans' in this sense means biological male. There cannot be a male female; it's either one or the other. And yes, I agree: 'live as a woman' - which woman? The only thing the 33 million women in the UK actually have in common is their biology. That's it. That's all. Female people cannot be TW, can they?

sleepyhead · 31/07/2021 10:08

The word female has gone the way as women.

It's the new "be nice". Not enough to call a trans person a man or woman, now they have to be affirmed in the sex they say they are.

The TRAs said that this would never happen, but of course they lied.

Clymene · 31/07/2021 11:18

'It's hard to know what is right and we honestly don't have nearly enough research yet for people to be sure. So we all need to find ways to make this work.'

Hmm No, it really isn't hard. Unless you're a cheat.

Isn't there more prize money in men's golf?

Datun · 31/07/2021 11:18

@OvaHere

This is still a shitty article though using all the usual nonsense phrases such as "against other women", "living as a woman" "trans female" when the correct term would be trans male because Alison is male.

The Open is, after all, one of the most prestigious and traditional competitions in men's golf, with a history stretching back to the Victorian era. Yet Alison, as her name suggests, is very much not a man.

Though born and raised a boy, she has chosen to live as a woman for more than a decade. And on that sunny day in late June, she made a little bit of history: becoming the first ever trans female to compete on the men's golf circuit.

There really isn't anything remarkable about a male person playing golf on the male circuit despite what the Daily Mail are trying to spin here.

If you read further on in the article it strikes me that Alison's main reasons for not competing in the women's competition is that despite 'transitioning' a decade ago they have not embarked on any medical transition so cannot meet the rule requirements to compete. So Alison's transition up to this point is clothing, make up and accessories.

It also seems that Alison thinks they have a good chance of succeeding in the men's competition, which stands to reason if Alison is a good golfer and the transition is just clothing and pronouns. Men's golf I expect is more lucrative.

Alison, who has been living as a woman since July 5, 2010 — she calls this her 'birthday' — is yet to take either of the stipulated medical steps, so has not yet experienced the changes wrought by hormone therapy.

But when she does, she has agreed to take part in a scientific study that will measure the effect on both her physical performance and her golf game.

It is being carried out by a team at Loughborough University with Joanna Harper, who is perhaps the world's leading academic expert on the science of trans sports and has advised the IOC.

By following the performances of Alison and several other athletes as they undergo transition, she hopes to be able to produce reliable data about the benefits they may — or may not — enjoy in various female sports.

This will, she hopes, allow governing bodies to find ways to allow trans athletes to compete without sparking allegations of unfairness.

Based on the above section it seems that Alison doesn't really have many moral qualms about taking a space in women's sport and they more than likely intend to do it at some point.

Alison can't do it at the moment due to the rules about lowering T and wants Harper to give them the go ahead because they don't want to be called a cheat. Which is missing the point that a male person taking a space from a female person is always a cheat no matter how many people you've persuaded to bend the rules for you.

In short I wouldn't be quick to praise this article or Alison because nothing I've read here makes me think that Alison cares about women in sport because as soon as Alison can get the go ahead to take a woman's place (but not be called a cheat like Hubbard because reasons) Alison will do.

This.

Sometimes the boiling frog analogy really hits home.

Women are being conditioned to praise a male individual who uses an ideology where women are always the losers, to describe a journey, the destination of which is ousting women from their own sport!

Datun · 31/07/2021 11:25

The Open is, after all, one of the most prestigious and traditional competitions in men's golf, with a history stretching back to the Victorian era. Yet Alison, as her name suggests, is very much not a man.

Seriously.

What actually made Alison stand out from the crowd, aside from her fetching navy-blue-and-teal pleated skirt and sleeveless top

She looks immaculate, emerging in a fetching pink ensemble from the bright yellow VW Beetle she uses to commute from Milton Keynes.

Fetching?

I would think this is the Daily Mail taking the absolute piss, but comments would suggest people are taking it at face value.

TinselAngel · 31/07/2021 14:44

It's terribly convenient that Alison is unable to discuss Alison's marriage due to it being "deeply traumatic".

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