National Gender Service Ireland

[SusannahMartin]

I see a new National Gender Service has opened in Ireland, headed by Karl Neff, who seems vacuous and wholly affirmative. I'm very concerned. The great Dr's Paul Moran, Ian Schneider and sitter-on-the-fence Donal O Shea don't seem to figure. It is notable that most patients will see an endocrinologist after only 2 visits. Have we learnt NOTHING? nationalgenderserviceireland.com/

Sometimes I think that some politicians and public servants here just look at what’s happening in Britain and think, “We’ll do the complete opposite, that’ll show everyone how independent and progressive we are!” OR they look at what’s happening in the US and think, “Oh, we want some of that!”

I dunno, Ireland seems determined not to learn from other countries’ mistakes in this matter and others

I'm Irish and am very worried about this as gender ideology is being swallowed unquestioningly by people I know who are usually quite sensible. These are people who campaigned for Repeal the 8th so that women could make their own choices about their bodies, yet refuse to concede that there is a conflict if we allow anyone to say they are a woman and as a result give them access to women's spaces and services.

I think a generation of 20/30/40 somethings are high on the success of the campaigns for gay marriage and abortion rights (which I fully support). Those campaigns engendered a great sense of well-being, community spirit, an opportunity to kick against older attitudes, and a declaration that the era of the same old men telling people what to do was over. Those campaigns were probably the first time many of those people were involved in activism and though the campaigns were for very important rights, tackling serious and emotive topics, the campaigning could also be fun and for many it was easy to "campaign" and be involved through the use of social media. So, a huge number of people have the campaign bug and see this as the next great progressive cause.

Fellow Irish people, don't flame me for this, but I don't think, in general, there is a culture of debate and critical thinking. We are great at talking, but not debating and questioning. I remember being really uncomfortable being with groups of French people who would really 'discuss' current affairs or social or political issues because I thought friends were arguing each other. And the same with Americans who have had good educations where the Socratic approach to questioning seems to be fundamental to their education. Whenever I have a "discussion" with friends in Ireland, we have a lovely time as long as we are all in agreement. But raise a contrary opinion and try and open it up to debate and things get uncomfortable and someone makes a joke and changes the topic. And if you know you have opposing views on something, but you love each other anyway, you just avoid the topic altogether.

Things may be changing now with the much younger generations, but the generation that will allow gender ideology to take root will be those who were educated under a system where someone, usually a man, held forth on a subject (a teacher, a priest, the president of the local GAA club) and we listened and accepted what they said and didn't question it too much because it seemed as if everyone was in agreement and fellahs like that with authority must know what they are talking about. If the loudest voices in the gender ideology wars are the TWAW-everything-is-transphobic-misgendering-is-literal-violence brigade (and they are always the loudest voices), then the majority of people, even if they have some misgivings, will think, 'Ah, sure, they must be right, tis terrible if the children are killing themselves".

However much Ireland thinks it has moved on from the past, you don't shake a characteristic like that overnight. I have friends, a couple, who campaigned really hard for Repeal which was very important to them for personal reasons. They are very progressive and the husband sees himself as an ally to women. He sees no contradiction in Tweeting about 'TERFs' and liking posts that are abusive to anyone (women usually) expressing gender critical opinions. He thinks that TWAW. His sister was the victim of a violent sexual assault by a stranger, yet he sees no issue in allowing transwomen to use single-sex spaces. He thinks we have discussions and debates, but he does that old thing of 'man holding forth'. Because he is right about everything of course, so there is no debate.

People are terrified of not being seen as progressive. And yes, if the UK is seen as TERF Island, then we will do whatever we can to make sure we are TRANS Island. What I find (almost) hilarious about this is that once again, it's men who will benefit and women (in the traditional sense) who will be screwed over. It was ever thus in Ireland.

@justaftb This happened during the abortion years too. But we didn't all stay silent. Some of us were not afraid to speak our minds despite it being taboo at the time. And that's how we won. Your male friend sounds captured. You just have to keep the conversation going, point out the dangers. And of course it's easy for him to say TWAW, it doesn't affect him. Lastly do not be terrified, you are not alone.

@Cailin66 Thanks! Yes, I am part of the 20/30s/40s lot and I know we stand on the shoulders of great women who were speaking out when it was REALLY difficult to do so. I don't think they've been given enough credit.

But it's bonkers, isn't it? 5 minutes after Ireland has acknowledged that women have autonomy over their own bodies, and that how women were treated in mother and baby homes makes us collectively as a nation hang our heads in shame, people are like, "Excuse me, Sir? Oh, sorry, Madam, I do apologise, yes, of course, this is the ladies communal changing room, please make your way. What's that you say? Another occupant of the changing room said she felt uncomfortable? I am terribly sorry, Si.., I mean Madam, I'll call the Gardai right now and make sure she is charged with a hate crime. I know, I know, what can you do? Makes you wish for the old days when the wimmin stayed quiet, wha'? Ha, ha, ha. I'm only coddin'. Kind of. Did you catch the game yesterday? When Seán Óg aged out of the hurling team, I was worried we'd never see that class of hurling again, but they are really bringing something special to the senior camogie squad. You have a nice day now, Si.., I mean Madam."

Also, women spent DECADES fighting for abortion rights and had to fight hard. Self-id and public policy that embeds rights based on gender identity benefits males more than females and disadvantages females more than males and it was introduced with barely any debate. Man wants he gets. Woman, if she's lucky, after much fighting and enough time has passed that social attitudes have changed, might get what she wants. And as soon as she does, because women can't have too many nice things (or just the basic rights that afford them security, privacy, and dignity), it is decided that a subset of males shall also have those things.

@justaftb

Also, women spent DECADES fighting for abortion rights and had to fight hard. Self-id and public policy that embeds rights based on gender identity benefits males more than females and disadvantages females more than males and it was introduced with barely any debate. Man wants he gets. Woman, if she's lucky, after much fighting and enough time has passed that social attitudes have changed, might get what she wants. And as soon as she does, because women can't have too many nice things (or just the basic rights that afford them security, privacy, and dignity), it is decided that a subset of males shall also have those things.

justaftb I’m enjoying your posts, you’re expressing how I feel too.

Ireland is like Canada and New Zealand - a small country (with a bigger, culturally and economically dominant neighbour) that wants to distinguish itself in terms of showing its difference in comparison to that big neighbour. Currently, all 3 countries are trying to do that by means of wokeness.

I’ve experienced sexism and misogyny in this country for nearly 5 decades and while there have been some recent positive changes for women in terms of legislation, Irish society is not as equal as it tells itself it is and is very quick to tell women pointing that out to shut up.

It's the same in both Scotland and Wales.

justaftb your post at 10.26 really struck a bell for me.

Your observations about having a "discussion" is bang-on.
In Ireland, it's all fine, as long as you are going along with the general discourse, but dont try to intervene with a new fact, or an alternative point of view (I am very contrary, and will often take a point of view which I may not believe just to avoid comfortable consensus).

I've sat and listened to a group of parents talk about the "poor cratur" trans boy, in their child's class. And, shur, what's the harm in letting him use the girl's bathroom.
It's very uncomfortable, when anyone raises the consideration of "what happens if the girls dont like it, or when they all hit 10, and the girls start their periods?".

Even when discussing that someone has come out as gay, it always starts with "well, I dont mind what he is, as long as he isn't harming anyone else" i.e. look at how broadminded and with-it, I am.
I look forward to the day when no-one actually gives two hoots whether you're gay or straight. I dont go around announcing my sexuality, why should anyone else (I am not naive, and know that anti-homosexuality is still around).

To go back to the OP, @SusannahMartin, thanks for highlighting this.

I really do find it astonishing, that the website goes straight to medication with anti-androgens, oestrogen and testosterone mentioned.

I could not, in conscience, refer anyone, without first having taken a very detailed history, noting any other sensory, social, psychological, family, physical and mental health issues.

FionaMacCool I'm known for being contrary too

I haven't actually discussed this with any one in my family as it hasn't come up (pandemic, haven't been home in a while) and I think they'd be surprised at my take on this because I've always been the one passionately defending immigrants, gay people, Travellers, or whichever disadvantaged group is being discussed in a negative way (not that my family spend their time sitting around slagging off disadvantaged groups!). They probably assume I'm TWAW all the way.

I've sat and listened to a group of parents talk about the "poor cratur" trans boy, in their child's class. And, shur, what's the harm in letting him use the girl's bathroom.

Reading that made me think that about how the equal marriage and abortion referendums were won because people on the fence or not too far over the fence were touched by the personal stories from individual gay people or the women and couples who shared their stories about not being able to access termination procedures in Ireland. And it makes me worry that sympathetic stories about gender non-conforming children will be used to draw the wool over people's eyes.

The individual stories from women who had abortions and stories from gay people showed that people in favour of those rights weren't morally repugnant monsters, they were friends, neighbours, family. And people realised they could still be anti-abortion (as I was surprised to find some of my friends were) but giving someone else the freedom to make that choice took nothing away from them. Ditto equal marriage - it might not be for you, it might make you a bit uncomfortable, but on balance, it's not hurting anyone. Neither of those changes impacted anyone else's rights. They added rights.

When it comes to gender identity politics, these types of sympathetic individual narratives are really unhelpful because they are usually about prepubescent children who just want to use the toilet or play on the girls/boys team. People just see a sweet child who doesn't want to be excluded or made feel different. So we give males who want to be women and vice versa the rights associated with the sex they want to identify into. But, yes, the cute 7 year-old who believes he is girl becomes a 14 year-old and his female contemporaries have lost their right to privacy from a member of the opposite sex. Capitulating to gender identity politics takes away or compromises the rights of women.

And even for the people who swallow the whole TWAW and 'be kind', how on earth do they not see that it's INSANE to take a physically healthy young body and after only 2 visits send them off to the endocrinologist to set them off on a lifetime of medicalisation and probably surgery? Surely it should be mandatory to have months of talk therapy?

Sorry, I completely derailed the original purpose of the post.

justaftb lets start an Irish League of Contrarians.

"The Irish Catholic Church was a positive force in an impoverished nascent State" - Discuss ......that'll really get them going.

To go back to the OP, I have read versions of your (justaftb's) well elucidated argument above...... voting for abortion, or gay marriage, or a plastic bag tax or whatever:- while I may not personally agree with it, I can allow that others experiences and beliefs are different, without any direct loss to myself .

However, trans-womens' needs come smack bang up against the needs of adult human females. And thus, there is a very clear loss to me, my mother, my sisters, my daughters, my nieces, my female friends...if TWAW is allowed to go unchallenged. What appears to be lost in the process is, that I can simultaneously argue for trans-rights, and, women's rights at the same time.
To argue for one, does not = argue against the other.
Perhaps that thinking is too hard for some.

To go back again to your OP SusannahMartin:
My work brings me across the fields of child and adolescent psychopathology, attachment, sensory processing, executive function, addiction, etc. And, as such, I am astounded at the lack of 360• thinking, and the lack of multi-disciplinary review before proceeding to medication +/- surgery.

Thanks for this thread OP, I sometimes feel like I'm in the wilderness with all this crap.
I can't put it as eloquently as previous posters, but I agree with so much that's been said already, especially about wanting to distinguish ourselves from our big bad neighbours.
There's always been a real insecurity about how we are doing in comparison to the UK, and anytime we are perceived to do something 'better' it's celebrated. It's actually embarrassing how much of an inferiority complex we seem to have.

And yes to the fact that Ireland is not a great country for women, it never has been. Scandal after scandal about women's health (cervical cancer scandal), how women were treated in childbirth (symphysiotomy scandal), mother and baby homes etc etc. It just goes on and on. I genuinely think many young women don't realise how recently it was that women got basic rights in this country, which had to be imposed by the European court of human rights.

And now it has all been undermined in one fail swoop.

Like a pp said, it took years of grassroots campaigning for abortion and gay marriage to be voted in, and there was lots of serious public discussion from both sides. I remember even with the divorce referendum, the church coming out and saying how society would fall apart blah blah. But there was lots of public awareness about these issues and the legislative changes.

But with Self ID it was just brought in by stealth. It makes me so angry how little the government seem to care about this. I have emailed TD's several times about this and not even gotten a response. They just took it upon themselves to remove single sex spaces for women, and don't even give a shit about what that will do for ordinary women, many of whom don't have a voice or a platform to complain.

It's so depressing how willing people are to just accept that any man who wishes should be allowed full access to female places and spaces, because well...feelings . We know that predatory men will use whatever tools necessary to get what they want, this is just making it easy for them. They either don't know or don't care about the effect this has on women and girls.

Same old shit really.

Fellow Irish people, don't flame me for this, but I don't think, in general, there is a culture of debate and critical thinking. We are great at talking, but not debating and questioning. I remember being really uncomfortable being with groups of French people who would really 'discuss' current affairs or social or political issues because I thought friends were arguing each other.

I wouldn't flame you at all but it's the polar opposite to my experience I'm Irish living in Ireland (after several years abroad) and my friends/family and I all discuss social and political issues endlessly. None of us are from politicians' families or anything but everything possible was/is discussed, from the pros and cons of the EU, to the shady land dealings of local TDs and councillors, to whether or not proportional representation is the the best democratic voting system, to why we're still stuck in civil war politics after a century, to what is behind the low proportion of female TDs in the Dáil, to why many women in the 21st century still change their names on marriage, to whether Brexit is going to spark off the Troubles again, etc.

Back in the pre-kids days when I frequented pubs, I'd have these discussions with friends late into the evening. Now I'm more likely to have them with family/friends over a cuppa or a walk. And we certainly don't all agree with each other! But the vast majority of the time people are okay about agreeing to disagree because the discussion itself is enjoyable. We might try to convince one another of something but will concede defeat with no hard feelings if someone can argue their position.

But even with that kind of atmosphere as a normality amongst people I know, there has been less discussion than I might expect over the last couple of years regarding conflicts between women's rights and trans activism. The pandemic hasn't helped because it has taken away many of the opportunities we have to chat and lockdown meant that people stewed in online bubbles for months without hearing dissenting opinions. Being out of face-to-face contact with people has made me more reluctant to bring up trans-related topics for discussion because it's like we're still learning to socialise with other humans again (though perhaps that's just me 🤪).

That said, it's been better recently. The olympics has been useful for getting people talking about how TW in women's events makes a mockery of women's sports. And that discussion a few months ago about unisex bathrooms in schools got people talking about the various reasons girls might need single-sex spaces. I'm slowly getting back to discussions from xmas 2019 about how self-id actually is legal in Ireland (still news to some).

[quote SusannahMartin]I see a new National Gender Service has opened in Ireland, headed by Karl Neff, who seems vacuous and wholly affirmative. I'm very concerned. The great Dr's Paul Moran, Ian Schneider and sitter-on-the-fence Donal O Shea don't seem to figure. It is notable that most patients will see an endocrinologist after only 2 visits. Have we learnt NOTHING? nationalgenderserviceireland.com/[/quote]
To address the point raised by OP, I had hoped that in light of the Bell v Tavistock judgement, and changes in paediatric gender dysphoria treatment in Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands, that the Irish service would not be 100% affirmation only. I hoped calmer heads (such as those mentioned in your post) would prevail but the view of politicians/Govt, and the view of the HSE, have not been amenable to recognising alternative views or treatment methods. I think that the Irish service is too bound up with activist groups (in the way that Tavistock was, maybe still is) and that those groups are pushing for one form of treatment. It’s a shame that there was no real discussion or debate on this and I feel very worried about children and teenagers who will be treated by the service and who might later regret the speed of treatment.

I think it would be effective if people wrote to the National Gender Service and pointed out that WPATH and the affirmative care model are not evidence-based and so we hope that they are not following WPATh or the affirmative care model and instead are making sure as doctors that they first do no harm?

Look everyone : we are more progressive than the Brits - well the English anyway! Desperate to be loved by liberal Europe . And isn't all this ' ah shur why can't we just be kind and give them what they want ' is just more Catholic guilt . It never went away. And there's a handy litmus test we apply to these things - if the church is against it , it must be wonderful. As to what happens with mixed toilets when the girls start menstruating? Lots of coughing and shoe gazing and you feel guilty for dragging it up. Like ' how can we have a united Ireland without a free comprehensive health service?' Bad form to mention that . Put it on the 'long finger'. Great thread BTW . I'm ordering Helen Joyce's book. With copies for a local TD and the community school. More in hope 🙏than anger.