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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Time to Get Tough On Porn"`

23 replies

Tesla73 · 27/07/2021 10:56

Depressing to admit that we all know why the powers that be are reluctant to clamp down on porn the way they have done on gambling, junk food etc and thats because its only women that are abused and damaged by the industry. And we have seen over the past few years how child safeguarding has gone out the window in order to not hurt the feelings of perverts everywhere (only the male ones obviously)

thecritic.co.uk/time-to-get-tough-on-porn/

my teenage daughter regularly shows me the dross on tiktok with poor deluded young girls playing up to violent porn tropes and how a generation of handmaidens have been brainwashed into supporting porn as an liberating feminist art form

OP posts:
dyslek · 27/07/2021 12:48

I think there is something untouchable about porn, as well as all its, lets call it practical functions, its a symbal of male sexual entitlement, and there is something almost sacred about that in our society.

Given that porn harms even its users let alone women in the industry, and its now acknowledged that its seen/used by children, logiccally it seems like a no brainer to introduce restrictions.

My own personal opinion is that in a capatilist/unequal and unfair society where almost everyone loses out, the entitlement of men to any and all sexual gratification they wish for is their bribe not to rebel.

MarshmallowSwede · 27/07/2021 13:56

Porn is indeed untouchable. Because it’s considered “harmless” for men. No one cares that women and children are in far greater danger from being exploited for this. As long as men have wank material, nothing else matters.

It needs to be banned period. It’s extremely harmful to men who view it too, but this is taboo to discuss. No one ever wants to talk about how harmful porn is for men in their lives and relationships.

Porn has no place in society. It is not healthy or ok. I don’t care if the woman “chooses” it. It’s not anything that benefits society in a positive way. A man getting jollies off should no take precedence over safety and safeguarding of women and children. Studies have shown how porn use increased the need for sexual offenders to escalate their crimes. Studies have also shown how harmful porn viewing is for men and boys in forming loving relationships.

Along with the pro porn men, dick pandering women are always out in front cheerleading how empowering porn is and “it’s no big deal”.

Men didn’t need the approval of women for
porn, but since porn became “empowering” it is even more so untouchable.

A certain brand of so called “Male feminists” love telling women that porn and prostitution are great career choices. So when you get male pro porn feminists and dick pandering women in the same room, it’s all this “sex work is work” and “only fans is a great career for students”. But they only ever mean porn and prostitution is great for women and girls. The sheer exploitative nature and that it is so blatant is disgusting.

No one is telling young men to go sexually exploit themselves. Porn is 100% about sexually exploiting women.

SweetGrapes · 27/07/2021 14:08

since porn became “empowering” it is even more so untouchable. It gives the perfect way to tell protesting women to stfu.

WinglessSonglessBird · 27/07/2021 14:32

When I was younger, I had the understanding that it was harmless unless someone forced. To each their own type of thing. However, through my own experiences with men, which isn't a lot and not in depth, and my own mind/body, it IS harmful, in subtle, accumulating ways.

I fully believe the modern porn industry exploits abused girls, even if those same girls don't see it. We are told that your sexuality is fixed, can never be changed. So we have abused girls that have fear, pain, terror, self-denying of their own needs/bodies/minds, people pleasing all cemented to their sexuality. Which is a travesty done by abusers cuz now these girls are permanently broken. But are blamed, too, with many saying, well that's just their sexuality. No, it was not supposed to be their sexuality...they were broken, groomed, had their sexuality shaped with terror, pain, etc. So now the porn industry, or the increasing violent and abuse kind, can proliferate, much to the glee of men who get off on causing terror, pain, shame, weakness, confusion.

It's so sad. My sexuality was broken by abuse, both direct and the day-to-day societal sexist bs. I did not understand that when young, and I still don't. It gives you extreme shame.

And yes, it affects men. Men I have unfortunately been with for a short time think it's normal. I thought, hey this is what sex is. This is what I'm for and supposed to like and if I don't, I'm not being an adult or normal. It was crushing. And men (older men too, not just young) use the line all the time of, hey other girls like this..you are supposed to like this. You can't say no. They get mad, thinking, hey all these porn girls and others do it, and I want you to, so you are the problem.

And it could just be me, but every single man I have ever been with or even comments from random guys (uncalled for comments) are all about how they have the power, and if you say no they are like but I want to. Even guys who say, hey I won't hurt you. They argue, shame you for saying no to something. And then they fixate on the one or few things you said no to. And the violence aspect is rife.

I literally believed that's what girls are for, it's the way of the world. Made me depressed. And I had a guy super mad cuz I said no to some things. He literally said, with extreme anger, it's all about what the woman wants and it's bs. I said wtf, no. It's about respect...if someone says don't do this to me, then don't.

I said if he told me to not do something to him I would not and never do it cuz I don't want to harm anyone. It's about respect. I said if I did something to you and said no but I kept doing it or pushing it then you would be upset. He didn't get it. Cuz most women don't go around forcing themselves on people. Men don't have that experience. They think women are controlling their sexuality by saying no, and they are seething mad they can't get what they want. If women were going around forcing acts on men, maybe they would see. "it's all about you women" he said mad. But I also never did anything to him that he was opposed to ffs. He got violent to me. Don't know if I explained that well. I had another guy, similar attitude, all nice til I said no, and then this guy, not physically, but verbally shredded me, all cuz I said no to just ONE particular thing. "but I want to just let me" I despair.

Also porn IS used as instruction for young people. It was for me, unfortunately. I didn't know. My family did not, does not ever talk about sex (even when I hit puberty) or bodies. I was left to figure it out myself, and through school (though sex ed was literally just about hey kids don't get pregnant and these are the diseases you get, and then thrown in their about consent.). I had no access to a computer til late teens and very minimally. In my 20s I did, and I did understand it as "oh, this is what people do for sex behind closed doors."

Also, I want to make a strong point that porn and sex can be used for self-harm. But it is seen as normal. For example, when I would hurt myself, I got sent to the hospital. But if I went around vaguely suicidal and hating self and feeling I'm only an object to be violent to and fell into situations with shady men, and basically did hurt self, put self in position to be hurt....well no drs or professionals batted an eye.

I literally had a very violent man say, you can do anything about this and if you hurt your own self you will be locked away, but I can do whatever to you. And you won't be believed. He is right and it really woke up! I tried reporting him to the police. Literally the male police officer laughed. I am not kidding. I left further realizing, yep I'm on earth to take abuse, god must think I deserve it. I even got upset at a therapist one time, said, hey if I hurt my own body I am locked away. But if I say, hey I'm gonna go have a relationship or sex with a violent guy and we are consenting, you can't do shit about it. She said true, I can't.

So I think a lot of damaged people are hurting themselves with this, on purpose unconsciously. And a few times I did literally consciously let someone hurt me bad. The fact it was consensual almost shouldn't matter in that case. I was basically using men's free pass for violence etc to "cut" me without me getting locked up, berated, pathologized, pushed from society. Can't hurt your own body, but hey if someone else does, cool, we don't care or go for it and make money or etc.

People should do what they want with themselves, but there is a fine line. And I'd wager many of the girls/women are acting out their abuse like I did (didn't realize this young) and/or using it to hurt and punish themselves cuz they hate themselves. And that's sad to have that industry exploit that.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 27/07/2021 14:32

With regard to internet porn specifically, I'm not sure how the UK government can set about regulating sites which more often than not aren't hosted in the UK in any case. Government mandated censorship of the internet isn't a rabbit hole we should be going down, and I don't think it's realistic to expect ISP's to police their customers viewing habits with regard to perfectly legal material. Even if you ban companies or individuals from hosting material on servers based in the UK, that wouldn't even scratch the surface of what is available.

I think it's far less about porn being 'untouchable', and more that it's virtually impossible to govern and prevent access to it without just prohibiting internet access entirely.

WinglessSonglessBird · 27/07/2021 14:43

I do not find nudity, sex, etc empowering at all. I find it is just shame, terror, weakness, doom feelings. Though if some legit find it empowering, I wouldn't know. Even if I had the most perfect, pretty body, I still wouldn't find it empowering. It's too much exposure and uncomfortable for me. However I do kindof admire women are comfortable in their own bodies. That's the part I think girls like the most. They don't have to walk around 24/7 scared and ashamed to live in their bodies. However, why you have to be an object to men to get those empowered feelings, I don't understand. Why can't everyone just wear and be and present their body how they like without it being about sex?

I can't wear ANY clothes no matter what MY reasons even if I just like it for me, without it being understood as about trying to get sex or etc. And I don't dress "sexy." I literally wear cutesy kids clothes cuz I like them and they make me feel who I really am. I don't want ANY body touching me. I literally have sworn of any human touching me. Never been in relationship, a loving one. But I gave up on it. And I just literally think society would be better if we did not live in bodies. No bodies=no way for anyone to hurt you (aside from emotionally through words).

I think society is gonna get to a point where everyone is traumatized to even live in their own body that we will somehow transfer our consciousnesses into robots. Honestly I might do it. Your body can never be hurt. It can never be used against you. You would only be your mind. I'm not saying this is good or healthy..just being honest. All this abuse is pushing humans out of their bodies, for better or worse.

Even the trans and sex/gender thing is a step towards that. It's getting people to even further separate themselves from their bodies. Take control of your body, the ultimate control, by identifying out of it, maybe to the point of into robots. I still think living in bodies is the source of most of the evil on earth. I don't have an answer for how to get people to feel safe, content, respected in the body they were born in. Maybe humans are meant to graduate from bodies? Might bring world peace?

Summerhillsquare · 27/07/2021 14:45

So sorry for the abuse you suffered @winglesssonglessbird. I hope you wings and song will come back soon.

WinglessSonglessBird · 27/07/2021 14:46

The internet would have to be policed...like everyone has to put in their fingerprint to log on? No more anonymous anything on the web. Which would have it's pluses and minuses. Could be a dictator's dream though. It's a catch-22 maybe.

Battleneck · 27/07/2021 15:57

@Tesla73

Depressing to admit that we all know why the powers that be are reluctant to clamp down on porn the way they have done on gambling, junk food etc and thats because its only women that are abused and damaged by the industry. And we have seen over the past few years how child safeguarding has gone out the window in order to not hurt the feelings of perverts everywhere (only the male ones obviously)

thecritic.co.uk/time-to-get-tough-on-porn/

my teenage daughter regularly shows me the dross on tiktok with poor deluded young girls playing up to violent porn tropes and how a generation of handmaidens have been brainwashed into supporting porn as an liberating feminist art form

On what basis do you think that "they" have clamped down on gambling and junk food? Seems more like meaningless words, zero real action to me.

It seems to me that gambling, porn, alcohol, weed, heroin, junk food could all be put in the same category. They are all things that can be consumed safely, that there is ZERO chance of ever eliminating entirely, because there will always be supply and there will always be demand. It is all about managing risk and minimizing harms and child protection, but beyond that you're in a fantasy world.

You seem to be talking about supply more than demand however, and I do accept that supplying is potentially very harmful in a way that supplying a place to bet or supplying booze or junk food isn't.

Obviously I would love to see - less porn generally; MUCH less extreme porn; much less porn accessed by kids; less pornification of mainstream media... but it is so hard to see how it can be done, not least because VPNs exist and the net is global.

Surely it has to all be about shutting down mainstream websites that fail to live up to high standards (this won't stop anything, but it might make it a bit harder for younger kids to stumble upon porn as the likes of tik tok might make more effort to keep kids safe in order to maximise profits)... and it's about having a vaguely fair society where kids aren't desperate for money... and it's about educating kids that "rough sex" and anal sex and slapping and BDSM are "normal" in so far as there is nothing wrong with being kinky, but simultaneously are not normal in that for most people gentle / loving / vanilla sex is much more where it's at. It's about education in terms of expectations, respect, consent etc etc.

Battleneck · 27/07/2021 15:59

@dyslek

I think there is something untouchable about porn, as well as all its, lets call it practical functions, its a symbal of male sexual entitlement, and there is something almost sacred about that in our society.

Given that porn harms even its users let alone women in the industry, and its now acknowledged that its seen/used by children, logiccally it seems like a no brainer to introduce restrictions.

My own personal opinion is that in a capatilist/unequal and unfair society where almost everyone loses out, the entitlement of men to any and all sexual gratification they wish for is their bribe not to rebel.

" it seems like a no brainer to introduce restrictions."

Given some women like making porn, some are desperate for cash, VPNs exist, kids are tech savvy and the demand will always be there, what restrictions do you propose and how will they work?

Battleneck · 27/07/2021 16:03

"Studies have shown how porn use increased the need for sexual offenders to escalate their crimes. Studies have also shown how harmful porn viewing is for men and boys in forming loving relationships."

I am pretty damn sure that plenty of men and boys can manage porn and loving relationships simultaneously.

I also don't like the logic about sexual offenders. It's like booze - we don't make booze illegal in part because most people are not alcoholics, so why punish them simply because some people are; and secondly people will always make and consume booze whether it is legal or not. Seems to me that banning porn is as likely to go equally as well as prohibition in the states.

I do agree with you that it can be harmful in numerous ways, and is far too integrated into mainstream culture. I just think minimizing the harms is somewhat realistic, suggesting banning it is just naive beyond belief.

dyslek · 27/07/2021 16:09

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

With regard to internet porn specifically, I'm not sure how the UK government can set about regulating sites which more often than not aren't hosted in the UK in any case. Government mandated censorship of the internet isn't a rabbit hole we should be going down, and I don't think it's realistic to expect ISP's to police their customers viewing habits with regard to perfectly legal material. Even if you ban companies or individuals from hosting material on servers based in the UK, that wouldn't even scratch the surface of what is available.

I think it's far less about porn being 'untouchable', and more that it's virtually impossible to govern and prevent access to it without just prohibiting internet access entirely.

I believe child porn is suppressed tho? how does that square with it being impossible to regulate (semi adult) porn?
Battleneck · 27/07/2021 16:09

Just to be clear - Winglesssonglessbird - sorry for what you have been through, if I thought that government could ban porn and eliminate the possibility of the next generation going through what you have then I'd be happy to sign up, but it just ain't gonna happen. Harm reduction can only happen through education, empowering women, and trying to get porn out of the mainstream.

dyslek · 27/07/2021 16:11

Sooooo, because there are other issues in society, noone should critisise porn?
This is not an argument really is it?

dyslek · 27/07/2021 16:13

Please explain why porn should be unregulated? should drugs also be unregulated? drugs grown and processed by people who are kept under exploitive conditions through fear of violent gangs? I mean there is a market for drugs right, so its all good? how about child porn? there is a market for that too.

Battleneck · 27/07/2021 16:13

I think you'll find that child porn is still made and consumed. I think that it is possible to try to eliminate child porn because the vast majority of adults think that ALL child porn is absolutely evil, and they are willing to support long prison sentences for law breakers.

I think that it is impossible to eliminate adult porn because many many people think that it's absolutely fine (or at least some of it is absolutely fine, and in principle it is absolutely fine, even if much of it isn't fine) and most people believe that letting consenting adults do what they want is a damn good starting point when formulating laws. And they recognize the impossibility of eliminating it.

Note - I do understand that many in the porn industry are NOT consenting in a meaningful way

Battleneck · 27/07/2021 16:15

@dyslek

Sooooo, because there are other issues in society, noone should critisise porn? This is not an argument really is it?
I did not say that people shouldn't criticize porn.

Gambling, booze and weed in themselves are not problems - but they can be massive problems. They should all be legal and regulated in my opinion.

I do not advocate porn, gamling or taking drugs for kids. Obviously

dyslek · 27/07/2021 16:16

If one woman is harmed, thats enough. Yes really. One woman harmed is enough to curtail mens sex rights.

Fuck you, fuck your porn.

TeiTetua · 27/07/2021 16:19

If anyone talks about "Getting tough on porn" they need to have some realistic ideas on how to go about it. Most people would say the horse has been out of the stable for years, and galloping around everywhere. And lots of people like it that way, not all of them male, so we can't look for any social consensus about it. I think the best anyone can hope for now is controlling pornography in one's own immediate environment, and if you have children, try to convince them that real life doesn't have to copy what's shown on the internet.

Battleneck · 27/07/2021 16:20

@WinglessSonglessBird

The internet would have to be policed...like everyone has to put in their fingerprint to log on? No more anonymous anything on the web. Which would have it's pluses and minuses. Could be a dictator's dream though. It's a catch-22 maybe.
I know that you're just trying to find solutions, but I'd bet anything that if you needed a fingerprint to log on then sick thugs grabbing people in the street and cutting off a finger to use to log on when you got home (or to sell on) would become a massive issue.
Battleneck · 27/07/2021 16:22

@dyslek

If one woman is harmed, thats enough. Yes really. One woman harmed is enough to curtail mens sex rights.

Fuck you, fuck your porn.

I understand your position and anger. I think. But the idea that you can stop people making and consuming porn is just completely unrealistic, just as the US found out that making alcohol illegal did not make the US a better place.
Battleneck · 27/07/2021 16:26

@TeiTetua

If anyone talks about "Getting tough on porn" they need to have some realistic ideas on how to go about it. Most people would say the horse has been out of the stable for years, and galloping around everywhere. And lots of people like it that way, not all of them male, so we can't look for any social consensus about it. I think the best anyone can hope for now is controlling pornography in one's own immediate environment, and if you have children, try to convince them that real life doesn't have to copy what's shown on the internet.
Yes. And campaign for a fairer society where no-one is on the poverty line and no woman makes porn unless she genuinely wants to. This would - IMHO - massively reduce the amount of porn produced, but there woudl still be plenty.

The normalisation of online sex work is absolutely disgusting, and I do not for one second believe that even 50% of young women are giving genunely informed consent - I'm sure the majority and / or vast majority are pressured into it by dangerous messages and / or abuse, and / or financial pressures.

But on the other hand I also believe that the genie is out of the bottle, that if two adults want to have a camera in the room when they fuck then that's fine, and if a third person wants to watch the vid they made that's fine too.

WinglessSonglessBird · 28/07/2021 21:08

I agree that porn is probably here to stay. And like mentioned, harm reduction, education, etc is the better route. Prohibition/banning will ultimately not work in reality. And, eek, yeah, I suppose if fingerprints were needed, jerks wouldn't bat an eye at cutting off someone's finger! There is no perfect solution but to give, especially kids, education and empowerment in other ways. And maybe try to get it out of the mainstream media, or at least lessen it, which is also probably a pipe dream.

Like someone said, the only thing to do is regulate it in your immediate environment. Maybe focus on kids' harm reduction and then accept that for the rest of us, the horse has left the stable. It would be like trying to uninvent it. Ain't happening. Same with nuclear bombs; we can't uninvent them=harm reduction.

Highlighting how porn is not real life might be a way to go. However, there are so many kids like me who only learn about sex through porn and I don't know enough about child psychology to know if even having a mass message of "hey kids it's not real" would even curb the current problems.

Ultimately it probably comes down to communication. And if not, being faster, better at picking up the pieces of damaged kids and people so instead of decades in that pit and mindset it's, say, only 5 years. Now if, when, how permanent, lasting damage occurs on a physical or mental basis, I don't know. Just ideas.

I think my whole generation of millenials and prob the younger ones have been massively groomed, abused tbh, and not just by porn but by the MSM and even adults in day-to-day life. It's sadly possible that this train might have to go to it's conclusion and crash/burn, with bad fallout, in order for enough humans to see, and so something better can rise from the ashes (goes for a lot of societal/world issues imo, too, that seem out of control and hopeless). Maybe Rome has to fall, so to speak, and the phoenix burn down, to born anew. However, that also seems like a give-up attitude. I have no solutions. Harm reduction and accepting this is reality is probably the way to go...

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