Just had some interesting conversations with some local election canvassers

[CigarsofthePharoahs]

The lib dem candidate knocked on my door first. Asked what I was concerned about in the local area. I did ask about womens rights and was told "we can't affect anything national only local". I pointed out that men getting into women only spaces was as much a local issue as a national one. It was weird, she went from being open and chatty to and almost zombie like "but trans women are women". I hadn't even said the word trans!
There was a big group of Tory canvassers later. So I asked the chap who knocked on my door the same questions. We were broadly on the same page in that we didn't want anyone to be discriminated against for how they present themselves, but that women only spaces needed to be kept so. He told me confidently that only trans women who have had "the works" (his words) done would be allowed in womens spaces. When I told him that this was not true and even getting a GRC doesn't require it he was actually quite shocked. Promised to pass my questions up the command chain.
I wish I had the confidence a lot of you have, I'm actually feeling quite twitchy now, having had actual face to face conversations. I'm also looking at my postal vote and wondering where to put my X.

Well done, OP! This is how we affect change.

Excellent work OP. I find writing about this really easy but talking face to face more challenging. Good on you.

I felt I had to say something, I'd just been reading the puregym threads.

Excellent OP, well done. I’ve not had a political candidate at my door since I’ve been aware of all of this. I can’t wait for one to knock!

I'm actually feeling quite twitchy now, having had actual face to face conversations.

There’s courage to be gained in starting these conversations. Given you weren’t put off by the odd reaction of the Lib Dem, and made more progress with the Conservative candidate later, hopefully you’ll feel able to carry on challenging people. Some people seem to feel no fear. It’s those who feel the fear and do it anyway who are truly courageous.

I live in hope of one of them knocking on my door.

Well done OP, as pp said it sounds like you got through to the second guy.

The only way for all parties to realise that women take their rights seriously is to ask the question on the doorstep.
They need to listen and the Lib Dem’s in particular. They seem to be wrapped up the most in the TWAW mantra.
Well done for asking the difficult question.
The Lib Dem’s have an app they use to register what voters are interested in. Make sure you make them put it in the app!

As a Lib Dem member, I really appreciate you challenging that canvasser. You may well have sowed a seed of doubt so don't be discouraged by the apparently dogmatic mouthing of the current party line. Thanks you.

I didn't know about the app! I got the feeling my opinions were immediately discounted when the TWAW mantra was stated.

You did really well! Talking face to face is quite difficult and intimidating but you did it any way. And you didn't let the reaction of the Lib Dem canvasser stop you from also engaging with the Tory one. Sounds like you actually made a difference in getting the guy to think about it and go away to find out more. That's the best anyone can hope for really, as the rest is up to them.

Well done.

I'm a Lib Dem and a feminist. I refuse to defend the party position on women's rights. The app mentioned is called Minivan and collates all the doorstep data from those we canvass. We have a group within the Lib Dems called Liberal Voice for Women and we're using it to provide the counter argument in support of protecting children and safeguarding women's rights. The party mantra that TWAW and the bullying of those who disagree is the most illiberal position a party named Liberal could ever take. Keep arguing with those doorstep canvassers, at some point the party will have to sit up and take notice.

You have all helped me feel less twitchy. I'll let you know if the labour candidate turns up.

I challenged a Libdem canvasser during the last election about women's safety and rights. I said I couldn't vote for them because of their position on this. She engaged very well and said she basically agreed with me but felt the Libdems were the best choice on other matters and they needed to deal better with this issue. All very polite but direct. No doubt it's got worse since then and she might not feel able to say what she did now

Yay! Once you're done it and survived, it will get easier and less intimidating.

LibDem response is interesting. Offered "men getting into women's spaces" she went straight to TWAW. So not sure that TWAW (or else why think of them when someone said "men"?) but also accepting that sex-segregated spaces are needed, but that transwomen should be in the womens' (rather than that everything should be mixed sex). A position at odds with their stand on self-ID, I think.

Not sure about the UK as a whole, but the LibDems in Scotland train their supporters on how to handle the pesky feminists. See their "Debunking transphobic talking points": lgbt.libdems.org.uk/en/page/debunking-transphobic-talking-points-longer-version. When anything about women's rights comes up, there's no room to consider what's actually being said; it's automatically transphobic and you have to shut it down. Which of course is both misogynist (and therefore bigoted) and hypocritical. And unproductive: you assume I'm a transphobe because I said a buzzword, I assume you're a misogynist for automatically dismissing the idea that women have legitimate opinions about their lives. Gets us nowhere. Also the LibDems are big on the idea that there's just a few people with multiple sock accounts orchestrating all the nonsense about women's rights "transphobia", so good that this person now knows and may report that one more "real life" person considers it very important.

Thanks, mumofmartha, for pointing out Liberal Voice for Women. Never heard of it and it sounds interesting; will take a look.

I did this last time and gave each canvasser one of Fair Play For Women leaflets to take away asking them to read it and email me with any thoughts. I got some interesting feedback so it was definitely worth doing.

@SageHoney

Yay! Once you're done it and survived, it will get easier and less intimidating.

LibDem response is interesting. Offered "men getting into women's spaces" she went straight to TWAW. So not sure that TWAW (or else why think of them when someone said "men"?) but also accepting that sex-segregated spaces are needed, but that transwomen should be in the womens' (rather than that everything should be mixed sex). A position at odds with their stand on self-ID, I think.

Not sure about the UK as a whole, but the LibDems in Scotland train their supporters on how to handle the pesky feminists. See their "Debunking transphobic talking points": lgbt.libdems.org.uk/en/page/debunking-transphobic-talking-points-longer-version. When anything about women's rights comes up, there's no room to consider what's actually being said; it's automatically transphobic and you have to shut it down. Which of course is both misogynist (and therefore bigoted) and hypocritical. And unproductive: you assume I'm a transphobe because I said a buzzword, I assume you're a misogynist for automatically dismissing the idea that women have legitimate opinions about their lives. Gets us nowhere. Also the LibDems are big on the idea that there's just a few people with multiple sock accounts orchestrating all the nonsense about women's rights "transphobia", so good that this person now knows and may report that one more "real life" person considers it very important.

Thanks, mumofmartha, for pointing out Liberal Voice for Women. Never heard of it and it sounds interesting; will take a look.

That link gave me the rage.

The first supposed ‘debunking’ is ”Trans rights are a threat to women's rights." (Answer:) Trans women are women, and suffer many of the same oppressions cis women do.

With this level of argument, you hardly need to read on! Just repeat the holy mantra TWAW.

The Liberal Party used to be a serious and ethical political force. But that was a long time ago.

Wow, just looked at one debunked transphobic question:

"I'm not cis because I don't have a gender identity, only sex."

Much like saying "I don't have a sexuality, I'm just straight", this confuses having the most common gender identity for someone of a particular birth sex with having no gender identity at all. Perceiving that one's gender doesn't exist separately from one's sex is simply a way of describing one's perception of being cis.

How utterly disrespectful of others experience.

No it's not like sexuality, being straight is clearly a sexuality. To have no sexuality would to be asexual.

I choose to not define my gender in their terms because I don't believe the concept of gender identity is useful. I do not have a female essence separate from my physical experience and socialisation. I definitely don't feel comfortable with sex stereotypes.

They can sod off with calling us cis.

What on earth is the ‘debunking’ list all about?

Sex IS unchangeable.

That debunking page is so flawed there’s no point arguing with anyone that would use it

That link gave me the rage.

Me too. What a load of waffley nonsense. And the 'scientific' link they included was not a peer reviewed article, but another load of waffley nonsense by another self righteous individual.

Well done OP, it is hard to confront this in real life. Many of us do not like confrontation, and don't like to be told we are hateful or bigoted for believing in biological reality. Good on your for holding your own. The more people speak up about this the better.

@CigarsofthePharoahs

You have all helped me feel less twitchy. I'll let you know if the labour candidate turns up.

If Labour turn up on your doorstep it’s worth recalling that they’re the party that gave us the Sex Discrimination Act and the Equality Act. Historically they’ve stood up to women, now they won’t listen to them.

So the labour candidate came round, even more revealing than the Tory chap!
Categorically does NOT believe TWAW, and agrees that women only spaces should remain so. Very happy to chat and ask my thoughts. When I pointed out the bigwigs in his party are taking the opposite tack he looked sad.
They were not surprised AT ALL when I said my opinion of KS was pretty low and he needs to get off the fence.
I'm feeling pumped now! It's like I connected to the Mumsnet spirit!