Inclusive terms for girls, women, and people who identify as female

[thelastgoldeneagle]

I'm reading a book on sex education for teens and some of the terminology in it is troubling me, specifically the use of wording such as 'people with vulvas' and 'menstruators' instead of 'women and girls'.

The author wishes to be inclusive, but I can't help feeling that if we can't even call ourselves 'girls and women', how can we then talk about e.g. sex-based violence?

Can anyone make any suggestions for terminology that includes girls and women, as well as people who identify as girls and women, that includes mentioning the words 'girls' and 'women'?

Many thanks.

Just girls and women will do.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Just girls and women will do.

Yup.

Yes I think just 'girls and women' include trans girls and women. For the avoidance of doubt, on first use , could just say 'women (including trans women). Or if discussing specific body parts could use 'cis women and trans men', or name the body part as above, and inc an easy to understand definition of that body part on first mention? Not sure for non binary people unless you use the body part descriptor but that may be my ignorance.

Girls and women

What book is it, OP? (for 'to avoid' list purposes)

I don't identify as a cis woman and few women on this board do.

Why would a sex education book need to group transwomen with women? Wouldn't it be transmen?

Women and girls are perfectly fine.

Calling us people who menstruate or people with a vulva or birthers or chest feeders, just because a minuscule % of females don't want to use those words or get upset by their female biology is absurd.

They're not stupid. They know they are included in any information regarding women and girls.

I still don’t know what it means to be a woman or a girl if biology isn’t the point of reference.

Perhaps get a book that was written before all this nonsense began, when we were still allowed to define ourselves as a sex... I find it hard to believe women are being described as "people with vulvas". Can you tell us what the book is?

Surely for biological matters girls, women and transmen. For some other things girls, women and transwomen. And then for other stuff girls and women?

Girls and woman. That’s kind of it really.

I can call myself a cat, a mountain, a tomato or a fbsidenska.

The reality will - and will always - be that I am a woman.

Words need to say what they mean, and be understandable and to the point. Not wiffle waffle, missing the point and focus of the content.

Can you imagine saying “I need some new school uniform for my little person with a vulva”?

No you can’t and these twats that are tweeting this shit can’t either. Which tells you all you need to know.

I don't feel the need to include biological men in a group to which they do not belong. The can call themselves hatstands for all I care, I won't be taking on the mental load of accommodating them.

That language should be nowhere near young people OP. This is teaching them that there's something shameful or forbidden about the words woman and girls. I wonder if there's lots of "testicle havers, ejaculators or penis people referred to? There won' be - there's nothing shameful about male bodies - it's just women who need erasing by the foolish misogynists.

As far as I'm concerned, girls and women are females. Females only.

The book also refers to 'people with penises', yes.

Later, when it talks about male violence to women, it talks about men and women. I wonder why it can't do this throughout.

Women and girls.

If necessary, the Introduction could address this calmly in a sentence or two eg “This book uses the words ‘women’ and ‘girls’ in their usual sex-based way. It makes no comment on the readers’ identities. These are up to the individual concerned” or similar.

I don't see why it can't be as your title: women, girls and those who identify as female/those with female biology.

I don't see what the issue is with including people but not deleting the use of 'women and girls'. Particularly where it concerns things that are solely experienced by born females, like periods, childbirth etc etc.

Bin the book - problem solved.

Can anyone make any suggestions for terminology that includes girls and women, as well as people who identify as girls and women, that includes mentioning the words 'girls' and 'women'?

Girl and woman are words that designate individuals of the female sex in humans, not an individual's preference for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes of the female sex. They therefore include all female people who wish they were otherwise.

Just as vixen is the word that designates the female sex in foxes, jenny is the word for female donkeys, queen for cats, empress for chimpanzees and angeline for wolverines.

I would not entertain the notion that the sex designator words for female humans do anything more than tell you what sex a person is. Because

A girl is any personality in a juvenile female human.
A woman is any personality in an adult female human.

Otherwise the definition becomes

A girl is a female personality in any juvenile human.
A woman is a female personality in any adult human.

I wouldn't know where to start with defining what a female personality might be. I'm crystal clear on what a female body is though.

So, don't give away our words is my answer to your question. Do not cede any more ground. That notion was entertained by enough people around four or five years ago that now it's no longer just women and girls being redefined but the very word female, too.

Which proves that where it comes to the followers of the doctrine of gender identity, appeasement does not work. And after dancing with the unjust man for far too long, I for one believe that we are long past compromise, too. Stand firm.

Ladies.

I’m a bit confused by what terminology you’re looking for OP? In a sex education book I can’t see any problem with referring to ‘people with vulvas/ovaries/penises/testicles’ or ‘people who menstruate’ (I personally hate the term ‘menstruators’ though) if it’s used to convey information related to having those bits or having bits that do those things.

If the book subsequently uses ‘men and women’ to talk about violence against women isn’t that sufficiently inclusive, as it would capture male violence against transwomen regardless of genitalia?

What's the book? I'd like to avoid it when looking for books about puberty for dd. A book about puberty needs to use the words girls and boys in their biological meaning or it will confuse the hell out of the children it is aiming to help.