Interesting reading - what do you make of this?

[NiceGerbil]

Hello

The Pullman thread sent me down a Twitter rabbit hole that stalled when I got to this

mobile.twitter.com/alisonphipps/status/1411387723034902531

Some extracts from their book are there- have a read (not sure how to put the text here!).

I found the extracts totally fascinating. If I knew nothing about this topic, I'd think well. IMO clear, succinct. Persuasive in the confidence of the points/ arguments.

Thing is it's... I suppose maybe true for an American USA context for the religious right who I would imagine fit what's written more or less.

Of course it's referring to all women who think sex is a thing that matters.

Would love to discuss if anyone wants?

Well women are best placed to fight for the safety they need from men by sex.

All agreed.

'@Bosky I don't place any inherent value on a person's judgement or knowledge of any subject matter simply based on their sex.'

What about religion race disability etc etc

?

Is it just with sex that the people in the group being discussed don't know their own group best?!

@OldCrone

So then it follows that, in fact, trans people are better placed to make judgements about rights for trans people, aren't they? They are embedded in the world of trans issues, they are at the centre of it - therefore they are surely better placed to understand and pass comment on the rights they are entitled to?

What rights do trans people lack in the UK?

And do you think women should also have rights?

The thread developed into a discussion about that yougov poll which was explicitly about British public attitude towards transgender rights...that poll listed a series of potential rights for transgender people - so those.

Yes I believe women should also have rights and I am aware of the perceptions of conflicts between the two at times.

[quote NiceGerbil]'@Bosky I don't place any inherent value on a person's judgement or knowledge of any subject matter simply based on their sex.'

What about religion race disability etc etc

?

Is it just with sex that the people in the group being discussed don't know their own group best?![/quote]
I posted that social categories' insight into themselves can differ from the understanding that others outside of the given category have for them - i don't see it as an issue of knowing best, but knowing differently and yes that goes for all groups.

So you accept that men know what men are like?

Hooray!

Blood out of a sodding stone about the bleeding obvious.

I posted that social categories' insight into themselves can differ from the understanding that others outside of the given category have for them

Like women, for instance. And males are outside of the category.

That's fine, we'll see what a public survey on rights for trans people filled out by exclusively trans people comes up with.

Do that. And then ask women if they prefer single sex spaces, without mentioning trans people.

Ergo, if women state that their rights are being impacted, by say, calling men women, maybe we have a point.

Maybe the difference between men and women is shown in the sheer number of male 80k to female 3.4k prisoners in England. I wonder why that might be?

As you can see from this yougov survey from July last year (I'll put in next post), a majority of the public agree with the statements 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', by a slim majority of around 4-5%, so I don't see how you can claim this isn't mainstream. But, for eg. they also tend to disagree that transgender women should be allowed to participate in women's sport.

How astounding that you passed by two things:

The public unequivocally don't support legal sex/gender self ID
The public including women don't support "pre op" (non-op) MTF trans people in female spaces such as toilets and changing rooms.

Plus rejection of males in female sport as you mentioned.

Which I think gives the lie to "they really think they are women just the same as other women, honest".

As you can see from this yougov survey from July last year (I'll put in next post), a majority of the public agree with the statements 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', by a slim majority of around 4-5%, so I don't see how you can claim this isn't mainstream.

That's not even true. The survey is here:
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Link to data:
docs.cdn.yougov.com/ai3h3xvf7o/Transgender%20data%202020.pdf

A transgender woman is a woman
Agree: 40%
Disagree: 36%
Don't know: 23%

A transgender man is a man
Agree: 41%
Disagree: 36%
Don't know: 23%

41% is not a 'majority of the public'.

Don't let a little thing like facts get in the way of a GCphobe

@OldCrone

As you can see from this yougov survey from July last year (I'll put in next post), a majority of the public agree with the statements 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', by a slim majority of around 4-5%, so I don't see how you can claim this isn't mainstream.

That's not even true. The survey is here:
yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Link to data:
docs.cdn.yougov.com/ai3h3xvf7o/Transgender%20data%202020.pdf

A transgender woman is a woman
Agree: 40%
Disagree: 36%
Don't know: 23%

A transgender man is a man
Agree: 41%
Disagree: 36%
Don't know: 23%

41% is not a 'majority of the public'.

Thanks for clarifying, so when those respondents who answered 'don't know' are removed from the survey, a majority of respondents believe a transgender woman is a woman and that a transgender man is a man.

You certainly can't say it's not a mainstream opinion, which was what was alluded to earlier.

The vast vast majority of the general public unequivocally do not believe that-

Male people literally become women (widely understood to mean what it always has, adult human female) if they say they are a woman.

I mean come on. You must know that?! Ask in any pub. At any time. Young old clientele whatever.

You honestly think it's s minority view... Nope.

Thanks for clarifying, so when those respondents who answered 'don't know' are removed from the survey, a majority of respondents believe a transgender woman is a woman and that a transgender man is a man.

What the survey actually shows is that when all respondents are taken into account, only around 40% believe TWAW and TMAM.

You can't just ignore some of the responses in order to try to make the survey say what you want it to say. 'Don't know' is as valid a response as 'Agree' or 'Disagree'.

A big point is whether they defined transman/ woman and if so how.

Without that it doesn't mean much.

In real life I have only met one person who is on board with this.

Have posters met the British public? I mean a wide selection of them? I mean come on.

Sample size 1688
Fieldwork. What does that mean?

I used to do surveys online for a bit of money when on mat leave and because I was bored.

You get paid for it essentially. 50p here a quid there.

It's not exactly s given that the person completing it has any solid views at all or any interest or knowledge of the topic.

I mean s lot of it they'll not be thinking hard and just going erm that one probably.

Just FYI.

And why is it always the same survey? Aren't there others?

There is this one, Gerbil:

wingsoverscotland.com/transforming-the-question/

'English women were 2:1 against self-ID on the first question, more than 3:1 against identifying females as fathers on birth certificates, and more than 5:1 against letting people with penises into their changing rooms.'

And this:

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

If anyone genuinely believes that what. 4 in 10 people in the UK literally believe that

A woman is anyone who says they are one as they are a woman should be seen and treated as one in all circs. On a self ID basis.

And definitely not that

Woman = adult human female

They are in for a shock. (And I don't understand how anyone with even a limited group of acquaintances etc can think otherwise).

Thanks for clarifying, so when those respondents who answered 'don't know' are removed from the survey, a majority of respondents believe a transgender woman is a woman and that a transgender man is a man.

So? People who say "don't know" have made a valid response, you can't just ignore them to suit your agenda. If you count "don't know" as not willing to commit to this premise, then far more people do not believe TWAW.