I've never posted on the feminism board before but I'm a long time lurker, and could really do with some help from the women on here. I got into a discussion with my cousin a couple of days ago and didn’t manage to make my point very well. The problem is that he’s one of those people who can always stay very calm and has a very quiet, impenertrable way of being stubborn whereas I’m the complete opposite, especially if it’s something I feel passionate about. I’ve trained myself over the years to not be like this most of the time but on the day I’m talking about I had no patience at all and was feeling very sensitive and inarticulate.
It all started when I showed him the video of Norm Hiccup, the Trans cyclist. I thought that, even if you didn’t know/care about what it’s satirising, it would still be entertaining to watch. He said that it was funny but it was also transphobic because it was suggesting that someone would transition or pretend to transistion in order to get an advantage in sports and he couldn’t believe that would ever happen. He wanted evidence. When I said that regardless of their thought processes it wasn’t fair for biological males to play in women’s sports because of their physical advantages he said “ so if someone’s felt this way all their life, they really believe it and they’ve decided to transisiton, they should have a sport they’ve worked hard for taken away from them?” I’m afraid my answer was a very outraged “yes!”
Next he said that I was only thinking of it in one direction. I asked him if he meant FTM and he said yes. I told that him I’ve never heard of a trans man muscling into men’s sports and that they mainly seem to get media coverage for giving birth. However, thinking about it further, if a trans man tried to join a men’s team and got accepted I would be just as annoyed about that albeit for different reasons I.e the physical danger to said trans man and the effect it might have on the rest of the team. He also kept using expressions like “very nuanced situation”.
We managed to compromise by agreeing that we were in favour of third spaces but I’d really like to produce some evidence and lived experiences which back up my views. I’m not trying to make him be gender critical or see the light or anything like that. It took me a few months of reading and researching to become properly gc. I think I was always a bit but , in the past my attitude was “if a man , who’s really unhappy and genuinely believes that he’s a woman inside, is prepared to go through all the surgery and ridicule and tries to live as a woman (can’t believe I never questioned exactly how one lives as a woman) then why not just accept it and be kind?” I don’t think my cousin believes that twaw or tmam. I think he thinks tnbbk ( they’re not but be kind.) My main aim is to get him to see some things from my point of view a bit. He’s a reasonable person and he will listen if I present my points well but he’s got no skin in the game. He’s a white, middle class ,straight, fairly gender conforming male in his late thirties with no children. He’s not particularly sentimental about children so saying “would you like it if this happened to any female cousins/friends’s children ? “ wouldn’t work. We also aren’t a particularly sporty family so he’s not likely to see any women or girls he’s close to experiencing personal problems with this.
I’ve been finding the “break it down” for me thread very useful and a lot of the resources I’m plannng on using are from there. I’ve also been working my way through Fair Play for Women.
These are some of the arguments which I thought I’d put forward to him. Any suggestions, any ideas about what I need to add or omit etc, would be really appreciated. Apologies for any incoherence or repetition. I have a long term illness which means expressing myself and keeping track of things can be difficult.
This is difficult for me to admit (I hate being wrong but I like to be fair 
) but I haven’t been able to find any evidence of someone transisitioning physically or socially purely to play sports. This doesn’t mean that they haven’t. After all would anyone admit it if they had? I also accept that the Olympian criteria for allowing trans women to play in the women’s catagories is a bit more rigorous than just turning up , putting on a dress and saying “hi, my name’s Rosie”. Under the current rules Lauren Hubbard is not cheating. The problem for me is not inner most intention. Lauren Hubbard and Hannah Mouncey might be lovely people in their daily lives. They might give to charity, be wonderful to their friends and family and genuinely believe that they are women. This doesn’t mean that it’s right for them to compete in sports with biological women.
Believing something deep down in your heart of hearts doesn’t make it true and it’s unfair to put pressure on other people to make it their reality. It’s fine if a man wants to present in a feminine way or a woman in a masculine way. They’re not doing me any harm. I’m still not going to accept that they’re a woman/,man with alternative genitalia.
IMO the Norm Hiccup video wasn’t saying that trans people deliberately transition just to play sports. What it was saying was if someone has a huge physical advantage then it’s ridiculous to pretend that they don’t. See also one of the interviewees saying something like “yeah! If they wanted to keep their reputations and liveliehoods” when asked if anyone minded or not and another interviewee calling Norm out and getting his life ruined. The previous two examples remind me of sports players not being able to say what they really think because it’s considered “unsporting” for want of a better word and of the vicious attacks women get on Twitter for daring to have opinions. I know I need to find real life cases to illustrate my points. I was thinking maybe Rosa Freedman and Maya Forstater. I also vaguely remember seeing a video, probably on here, where women and trans women talk about their experiences in sport. It featured Rachel Mckinnon. I think it was pretty balanced .
A lot of transwomen seem to transition in their thirties or later, for some reason, when it’s normal to stop playing sport at a professional level. The argument that it would be mean to stop someone playing the sport they love at this age doesn’t wash with me.
My cousin also used the expression “punching down”. This made me feel uncomfortable as it seems like he’s brought into the narrative of “poor little vulnerable trans women.” Also, I think it’s punching down to join a group of women who don’t have your natural physical advantages. I was thinking of showing him the picture of Hannah Mouncey tackling a woman and a picture of a trans woman who joined a girl’s basket ball team (I think the name was Caroline something). It was a few years ago but it’s still a very striking picture. Other ideas include showing a picture that sometimes gets put on here (can’t remember what’s it called but it has two sillhouettes, male and female, with information filled in about all of our anatomical differences), and quotes from Tamika Brent and Fallon Fox about the fight they had. I think Fallon Fox is an unhinged bully who would be really unpleasant even if they weren’t trans. The important difference for me is that if Fox had not been accepted as a woman they could never have done the damage they did to Tamika.
Rachel Dolezal. Definitely white. Is still giving interviews insisting that she is African American. She really seems to believe it. She even represented the NAACP chapter of Spokane Washington until the controversy about her “trans-racialism” blew up. Would my cousin say “yes but she’s genuinely believed that she’s black all her life. Why should all that be taken away from her?” Probably not.
I had a look on Wikipedia at trans athletes. I know there are better sources than Wikipedia and I could see that a lot of the sources were stubbs but it’s a good start. One thing I did notice was that a lot of trans women seem to transisiton and then try to carry on playing their respective sports with women but a lot of trans men transition but carry on playing with the women or they retire.
Wasn’t there something in Mexico recently where a lot of men pretended to be transgender for some reason? I think it was political. I need to look that up and provide evidence.
I’ve just remembered that there is going to be a trans man in the next Olympics. They are playing in the women’s team (football I think) and not making a huge fuss about it. I think they’re Canadian.
Perhaps I could use the Iranian women’s football team as an example but I’m not sure about that. I don’t know enough about it and I don’t know how much control the players had over what team they played in.
I thought about directing him to people like Karen White, to show how men will identify as women if they can get something out of it. However this is a risky strategy. He can be very literal minded. If I provide evidence that men identify as women in the prison system he might well say that he thinks that’s awful but they’re not athletes. I also don’t want to be accused of thinking that all trans women are perverts. I don’t but I don’t think they’re any less likely to be than other men just because they’ve changed their “gender presentation” for want of a better expression.
I also thought about Phillip Bunce. I don’t know if he decided to do the “girl mode” thing deliberately to win the award he did. I would guess not. However, he puts on a brightly coloured dress and a wig, says that he is still a man and, hey presto, gets a reward.
Maybe Larry Nassar and Andrew Wheeler too. Yes, they didn’t pretend to be women but they didn’t achieve the positions they did overnight, they had to work for them. The end goal seemed to be the same though. They wanted to abuse women and girls. Compared to that, identifying as a woman (especially if you don’t have to do anything to look feminine) doesn’t seem that far fetched to me. Yes namalt, I know a lot of lovely men but the minority mean that we have to be careful just in case.
I think it must be awful to genuinely believe that you’re the opposite sex and feel disgust when you look down at your body. I feel sorry for anyone with any type of dysphoria . I believe people who have issues with their biological sex need help and support. I also think that if you don’t have dysmorphia but are a gender non comforming person it must be really difficult, especially now, when the Love Island, ultra masculine, ultra feminine stereotypes are pushed upon society. I don’t know much about it so this is highly speculative (I probably need to find another source) but maybe some gender non comforming men prefer playing sports with women because they are afraid of being attacked (maybe even have been attacked) by other men because of the way they present. On the other hand, women and girls aren’t support humans and shouldn’t have to budge up. Women fought for women’s spaces, votes, refugees, rights to go to university and get a degree, equal pay, maternity leave, the LGB community fought for their rights, disabled people fought for rights in employment and spaces on public transport. I’m sure I’m missing out a lot of examples here. There are so many marginalised groups throughout history, and in the present day, who have overcome so much and are fighting to overcome more (just realised that there are far too many fights and foughts in that last bit ). The point I’m trying to make is that if trans people started pushing for their own Olympics or other sporting competitions I would be behind them one hundred per cent. Unfortunately while I know some trans people support third spaces , Miranda Yardley being a great example, far too many don’t.
That’s all I can think of for now so thank you for reading and, as I said before, any help or feedback would be great. 
P.S If I don’t reply right away I haven’t disappeared or lost interest. There’s only a small amount of time during the day when I’m alert enough to engage in conversation, online or otherwise.