Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Evidence for why transwomen should be in women's sport?

75 replies

GonadTheGaul · 18/07/2021 15:01

I know some posters here have been wondering where the evidence is for including transwomen in women’s sport and sadly so far nobody has produced any. I went looking for some and found nothing with any actual evidence at Mermaids, Pride Sport, Gendered Intelligence or GIRES, although they might have something I didn't find. I did find this document from Athlete Ally:

www.athleteally.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/The-Future-of-Womens-Sport-includes-Transgender-Women-and-Girls-Statement_7.14.21_v5.pdf

There’s 8 pages of the statement so it won’t take you too long to read. They say that their document uses ‘a close reading of peer-reviewed, credible sources’ and also state that ‘The consensus among scholars from multiple disciplines, including human biology, kinesiology, law and policy, and gender studies, is clear: the future of sports for women and girls includes both transgender and cisgender women and girls’, although there’s no reference as to where this consensus came from.

There’s plenty about how doing sport is beneficial, which I’m sure we agree with, and how transgender people are often under-represented in sport, which is a shame and worth addressing, which I’m sure we also agree with. There are sections on sports policies and what they say, and the legislation around them. The document states that ‘most organizations have removed unscientific and exclusionary restrictions that prevent access’, referring to transwomen in women’s sport. There is no evidence provided to back up the assertion that these policies were unscientific.

On page 7 they deal with the science (don’t get excited!). They start by saying that the majority of studies on trans athletes are inconclusive, rely on false comparisons, use cherry-picked studies to support an ideology, and that they are ‘laden with limitations, flaws and biases’. So what are these limitations, flaws and biases, and why are the results so unreliable? They don’t seem able to elaborate on that at all. I was hoping for a good critical review of the research here but none is forthcoming.

Then they list a variety of factors that affect sports performance such as ‘aerobic capacity, cardiac capacity, flexibility, height, lean body mass, limb length, muscle mass, and red blood cell counts’ without any mention that these factors are affected by sex, but not by gender. They criticise the concentration of sports bodies on testosterone levels and say that ‘the link between testosterone and athleticism is inconclusive at best, and inherently flawed, at worst’, but don’t even consider the details about the difference between a testosterone-driven puberty and its effects, versus adult serum levels and the effects of maintaining/increasing/lowering them on performance. Again, where is the critical review of this literature?

On the last page they state ‘transgender inclusion in sport is fundamentally an ideological, rather than a scientific, issue.’ Which is interesting as they’ve claimed policies excluding transwomen from women’s sport are ‘unscientific’ (no evidence supplied), they’ve claimed the scientific evidence that transwomen have an advantage over women is flawed and unreliable (no evidence supplied) – so why not say the science doesn’t support the women’s category being for females only?

Finally, although they produce evidence for the benefits of sport and for increasing participation of transgender people in sport, they produce no evidence as to why transgender people should be included in a category for people of the sex they identify as, and not for the sex they are.

There are issues I’m sure others will pick up on, but while they’ve made a case for transgender people benefitting from participating in sport more, which I agree with, they haven’t addressed fairness or safety for female athletes, or made any coherent case as to why anybody should be included in the sex category that isn’t theirs. My overall impression is that it’s very disappointing and doesn’t really address the science at all.

I'm still interested in seeing the evidence if anyone has it though!

OP posts:
littlbrowndog · 18/07/2021 21:54

It’s just bonkers.

Who knew 5 years ago women would have to be defending the fact that there is women’s sports

Why we even have to say that

Every singl3 person knows that women’s sports are for women

Why do I even have to say that

NiceGerbil · 18/07/2021 21:59

Yeah I know.

All of it, prisons, clubs, etc. 99.99% of people know why they exist. All the single sex stuff we have... Had.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 18/07/2021 22:00

@NiceGerbil

Arguments I've seen include

There's no difference in size physical strength etc between men and women. Women just need to train harder.

Or
Women believe there is a difference only because it's been pushed by patriarchal ideas about women being weak/ feminists saying women are vulnerable to men. It's a damaging lie

I challenge these Nobel-deserving n=1 researchers to prove it by just training harder and beating male athletes whose performance is as superior to theirs as they are to women of a comparable age, training and competition level, and fitness status.

If all it takes is determination and training hard - many, many scientific as well as sporting awards await them. tbh - some paranormal and supernatural ones too if we are to believe that this also underpins their densier bones, greater musculature, different muscle fibres etc.

littlbrowndog · 18/07/2021 22:06

I don’t care about all their studies or whatever.

We all know the truth. 🙌🏽🤦‍♀️

NiceGerbil · 18/07/2021 22:29

With the sport thing it's interesting.

I doubt there are loads of studies about whether men are generally taller, physically stronger etc etc because it's just something just obvious and universal.

So now it's all ha where are all the studies?!

Same as everyone has known forever what a woman is. And now it's all ha says who? And then a load of stuff about women who can't have children, clownfish, racist statements imported from the USA etc etc.

And it's listened to!

ErrolTheDragon · 18/07/2021 23:04

I doubt there are loads of studies about whether men are generally taller, physically stronger etc etc because it's just something just obvious and universal.

There's loads of statistics.
Starting from birth when parents know which set of percentile charts to refer to, according to which sex their child is.

334bu · 18/07/2021 23:08

It's also the pretence that somehow the male body of a transwoman is somehow intrinsically different from another male body. So you have people discounting research done on athletes who are not trans or trans people who are not athletes. So if a study shows transwomen do not lose strength after Cross sex hormones , this is invalid because they are not real athletes. Hmm
Any study which shows that even schoolboys can trounce the best women in the world is invalid , because these athletes are not trans and as we know transwomen's bodies are not " male" bodies.Hmm
No research will satisfy , no matter how accurate it is because it doesn't give the " correct" answer

NiceGerbil · 18/07/2021 23:14

Stats yes

Studies into whether on average, and adjusting for various things, men are taller than women? Maybe I suppose but I can't imagine there's been many!

PrincessNutella · 19/07/2021 04:48

Most studies erroneously suggest trans women are physiologically equivalent to cisgender men--

How can you be a trans woman if you are not literally a "cisgender" man, never mind equivalent to one?

TheSlayer · 19/07/2021 05:09

Even if studies showed that transwomen aren't equivalent to men (and there are no reliable studies that do so)
It doesn't mean that they are the same as women. Taking on face value that trans means someone is taking hormones and has had surgery (and most of the time this is not the case) studies have shown transwomen retain a measurable advantage over women.
So whilst dropping testosterone might put one at a slight disadvantage when competing against males, it doesn't level the field enough to compete against females.
And then there's the fact that male bodies increase risk of injury for female bodied people. Studies into skull thickness for example by world rugby show there's a much more significant risk of concussion to female people when forced to compete with males.

Never mind the fact that in reality the breadth of trans has been widened to include those who have made zero physical changes. There's definitely no difference between these individuals and men because the whole basis of their being trans is a self Id thing, only needs their way so.

NotBadConsidering · 19/07/2021 05:31

Before the attempt to deny the reality of physical differences even starts, TRAs should explain how transwomen meet the eligibility for consideration of entry into women’s sport. The only discernible answer that can be given is “because they identify as a woman”. They should then explain this internal feeling and how it makes that person a woman, and if they’re successful in doing so then possibly maybe a discussion could start on the obvious physical differences.

Until then, transwomen aren’t eligible for women’s sport because they do not meet the entry criteria. Stop wasting time on advantage or no advantage, or testosterone levels, or puberty.

They aren’t eligible.

LoislovesStewie · 19/07/2021 05:39

I'm going to be a man today, just so I can enjoy a bit of male privilege for a change. See you in the gents! How ridiculous would that be? About as ridiculous as this report, that's what.

Greenwateringcan · 19/07/2021 07:06

@LoislovesStewieI was talking about this whole issue with my relatively new boyfriend yesterday and he said. If men are so safe and it’s no risk having them go to the ladies, why can’t the trans women just go there. Why do they need to go to the ladies.

I think I’ll keep him (the boyfriend that is).

BreatheAndFocus · 19/07/2021 07:11

Reality must be obliterated. If you believe TWAW, then that must count in everything. There can be no arguments about muscle strength, lungs, etc, and if there are they’re all wrong. Accepting any studies like that would invalidate the mantra TWAW, therefore by default such studies are automatically wrong because.....TWAW.

More than that, anyone suggesting, even indirectly, that TW aren’t women is automatically a bigot so can be ignored or ostracised.

There! I summarised the report in less than 8 pages! It reminded me of all the videos on YT ‘explaining’ why JKR is a transphobe - full of fake ‘evidence’ and circular, all masquerading as ‘science’ and ‘proof’.

BeUpStanding · 19/07/2021 07:15

This is a really interesting conversation, and Linda is great. She goes into serious detail, including a review of the research / arguments used by the Olympics to allow biological males to enter female categories.

BeUpStanding · 19/07/2021 07:18

It's a Benjamin Boyce interview, video called "The end of women's sports, with coach Linda Blade". She's got a book out as well

ErrolTheDragon · 19/07/2021 07:19

They start by saying that the majority of studies on trans athletes are inconclusive, rely on false comparisons, use cherry-picked studies to support an ideology,
...

On the last page they state ‘transgender inclusion in sport is fundamentally an ideological, rather than a scientific, issue.

So what it boils down to is that they think it's an ideological matter.

Rather than simply being based on a perfectly clear fact, that humans are dimorphic with well-known bimodal distributions in many physical attributes.

And even as an 'ideological matter', they give no consideration whatever to the validity of the ideology of women's and girl's rights.

Oblomov21 · 19/07/2021 07:20

8 pages. OP was looking for evidence. Well this clearly isn't it.

quixote9 · 19/07/2021 07:25

OP, I have a feeling that what's behind your question is how it's possible that the facts can be plain as day and yet the dogma insists on the opposite.

You must have missed something, you think. Which is the usual reaction when faced with total conviction. Doesn't make it the right reaction, but totally understandable.

The right reaction, according to me and most of us here, is to just stick with what's plain as day.

And what's plain, as others have said too, is that the only way one can arrive at their dogma is if women have the social status of eggplants.

Women's feelings, goals, health, aren't even on the map. In which case the only factor is transwomen's feelings. The eggplants' place is to shut up and help.

Datun · 19/07/2021 08:39

@NotBadConsidering

Before the attempt to deny the reality of physical differences even starts, TRAs should explain how transwomen meet the eligibility for consideration of entry into women’s sport. The only discernible answer that can be given is “because they identify as a woman”. They should then explain this internal feeling and how it makes that person a woman, and if they’re successful in doing so then possibly maybe a discussion could start on the obvious physical differences.

Until then, transwomen aren’t eligible for women’s sport because they do not meet the entry criteria. Stop wasting time on advantage or no advantage, or testosterone levels, or puberty.

They aren’t eligible.

Now you see, that would be very interesting. It's the crux of the matter and, as such, gets surprisingly little coverage.
Datun · 19/07/2021 08:44

@BreatheAndFocus

Reality must be obliterated. If you believe TWAW, then that must count in everything. There can be no arguments about muscle strength, lungs, etc, and if there are they’re all wrong. Accepting any studies like that would invalidate the mantra TWAW, therefore by default such studies are automatically wrong because.....TWAW.

More than that, anyone suggesting, even indirectly, that TW aren’t women is automatically a bigot so can be ignored or ostracised.

There! I summarised the report in less than 8 pages! It reminded me of all the videos on YT ‘explaining’ why JKR is a transphobe - full of fake ‘evidence’ and circular, all masquerading as ‘science’ and ‘proof’.

Exactly. It's just bullying, in other words.
Lessthanaballpark · 19/07/2021 08:47

@BeUpStanding yes that was a really good interview. Linda Blade knows her stuff.

It feels so unfair that women fought for ages to get included in sports in the first place. She goes through how even when they were finally included in the Olympics they weren’t given parity in number of events.

Now they finally have and it’s going to be destroyed. Everything those women have worked for.

It depresses the hell out of me.

Aroundtheworldin80moves · 19/07/2021 08:58

I've come to the conclusion that some men are threatened by the existence of transwomen so by pretending they are actually a type of women they are no longer a threat to their masculinity.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/07/2021 08:59

I doubt there are loads of studies about whether men are generally taller, physically stronger etc etc because it's just something just obvious and universal. Oh there are Smile

Many of them are very sport specific, quantifying the dis/advantage of every inch of additional arm length, length of big toe, etc.

Like the effects of caffeine on performance it is a very simple, non invasive study that many students choose to do for their dissertation. Many then go on to do similar on elite sport or niche events. Much of it filters into training techniques, clothing, other sport apparatus.

Physiology and biomechanics and sports performance are an enormous field of study that every undergrad on any sport course is mandated to study, sex based differences loom large. Which is why it is fucking infuriating that nobody currently involved at organisational level isn't standing up and shouting "You must be mad, we all know that shit isn't true!"

334bu · 19/07/2021 12:45

Physiology and biomechanics and sports performance are an enormous field of study that every undergrad on any sport course is mandated to study, sex based differences loom large. Which is why it is fucking infuriating that nobody currently involved at organisational level isn't standing up and shouting "You must be mad, we all know that shit isn't true!"

👏👏👏👏

Swipe left for the next trending thread