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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Upset that this child had surgery to remove breasts

44 replies

PrincessNutella · 16/07/2021 15:34

I was on a zoom call last week with old friends. One has a late teenage daughter. A young person walks behind my friend in the kitchen where she is. She calls the young person over. Appears to be another teen girl with an open plaid shirt, short hair, and what looks like a bunch of ace bandages wrapped across her chest. "This is Kyler (name slightly changed, you get the idea). "He just had his top surgery yesterday. He's staying with us because his parents aren't supportive." Everyone on the zoom call is "Ooh congratulations on your journey," and I am feeling sick. Sick because I have been at high risk of breast cancer for most of my adult life and have had multiple surgical biopsies. Sick because every six months I sit in a room full of scared women waiting to be tested again and I know we aren't all going to make it. Sick because I know a breast is a living organ that fed my children, and because I know that when I was a teenager I sometimes hated my breasts, too, because they attracted predatory men. And sick because this is such a crazily futile act that has its failure written in its very performance. No man has surgery scars from having his breasts removed so he can look like a man. He just is a man. Am I unreasonable to think that this child will regret this decision?

OP posts:
Nonmaquillee · 16/07/2021 16:40

@Lifeinthelastlane

At 19 you would struggle to get a doctor to sterilise you, or give you a vasectomy. At 19 the idea of breastfeeding would have made me sick, no idea that I would want to do it in the future. I'm not even convinced you should be allowed a tattoo at 19!
Absolutely you would struggle to convince a doctor to sterilise you aged 19 - it would be considered unethical because of course you could change your mind.

But breasts?? Nah…absolutely fine to get rid of those things 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️

PollyTucker · 16/07/2021 16:44

The child clearly understands what they were going into before they had the surgery and there is nothing wrong with getting it. It helps them with being identified/accepted with the gender they choose. I don't understand why people in this chat are saying negative things about it. You may not understand the feeling that they have however you are also not trans.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 16/07/2021 16:45

Our poor girls Sad

I watch my daughter & her friends hunched over in big baggy jumpers just as we did at that age, some went on to self harm with anorexia this generation are using mastectomies.

Anotheruser02 · 16/07/2021 16:46

Absolutely you would struggle to convince a doctor to sterilise you aged 19 - it would be considered unethical because of course you could change your mind.

My friend as a 27 year old Mother of two was not allowed to say she never wants to be a Mother of three because she (according to her doctor) was too young and may change her mind.

Unicorn34 · 16/07/2021 16:46

My youngest child (born female) went through a lot of physical pain when they bound their chest - it was a large chest and they were a size 4-6 (still are) and also wanted to live as male. We allowed the binding to happen only when outdoors - didn't want them to have the binder on 24/7 due to the damage it can cause to healthy tissue. This went on from the age of 13 when they had NHS counselling and decided that this was where their problems started (wanting to be male). They struggled until they were nearly 19 years old - binding every time they went out (it actually stopped them going out and they became reclusive.... stay in, less pain - go out, pain). When it became too much for them and they had no life, we agreed (after 7 years) to allow them to remove their breasts. It was not an easy decision but it was also not our direct journey and we had to allow them to make a life changing decision with counselling and professional support.

My child is now non-binary, is in a relationship with a hetrosexual male (of the same age), is taking the pill (so still has a female body) but has never regretted having the double mastectomy.

Everyone's journey is different - but we have NEVER enjoyed any part of this distressing and painful journey they have been on for so many years. It has been heartbreaking to see our child in so much pain - both mentally and physically.

I am sorry that the scene on Teams distressed and upset you. I am glad that the child discussed in the OP has some support as I cannot understand why a parent would not be supportive of their child who is in pain.

Just to add, if I start getting roasted on here for being a loving, supportive parent to a child in pain, I will get my post taken down. I just wanted to add some perspective to an emotive subject.

Abouttoblow · 16/07/2021 16:47

PollyTucker

The child clearly understands what they were going into before they had the surgery and there is nothing wrong with getting it

You really believe a child or a teenager understands the long term implications of that decision?

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 16/07/2021 16:47

I’m so sad for that vulnerable teenager who should have been protected. And I’m disgusted that your so-called friend did such a shitty thing to you, Princess, knowing your own painful history with your breasts. Most people would be more sensitive, but virtue signallers seem immune to common decency.

Flowers to you and to that teenager who wouldn’t want them.

I’ve just got back from hospital after a minor op to (we hope) solve a gyne problem. Worth a bit of pain to put things right. But the thought of what young impressionable women are being tricked into …. I can’t bear it.

Ozanj · 16/07/2021 16:47

@CardinalLolzy

That's interesting about male breast cancer, when you say men/uncles/DS Ozanj do you mean male sex or all people who identify as men?

Their body to do whatever they want with
It is not legal to 'do whatever you want with' one's body, adult or not.

Male sex and female sex both get breast cancer. Obesity is a risk factor for both and the cases of both are going up.
goldfinchfan · 16/07/2021 16:47

I couldn't get a Dctor to steralize me at 29 . They said I would cahnge my mind.
I never did.
However when I was 19 I had all kinds of views I no longer support.
A person can change a lot as they go thru their 20's.
My daughter wanted her breasts removed but once she got to age 21 she wanted to be pregnant and has breastfed 6 children.
19 is too young and the pressure being put on that girl is too much.

19 is usually more teen than adult. It has now been shown that the brain doesn't mature until mid twenties.
So surgery should be delayed until then.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 16/07/2021 16:48

Not supporting a child in pain? Jeez - how much pain will someone be in after surgery - and how much more when they look back and wonder why they did this with regret (and anger too)?

CardinalLolzy · 16/07/2021 16:49

Unicorn thanks for your post and Flowers as it must have been incredibly hard. I think I am still struggling to understand why people who believe that sex and gender aren't linked also believe that having breasts is incompatible with being/living as a man? Did they see lots of messages (stuff online etc) about this?

Do you think it is more like body dysmorphia (people who hate their body/an aspect of their body) or is it linked to notions that bio sex and gender should somehow 'match'?

Sorry if I'm being thick but I can't quite get it. And feel free not to answer as it's not your job to explain to me!

2bazookas · 16/07/2021 16:50

What I find most sickening about OP's experience, is that her zoom friend exhibited Kyler to a bunch of total strangers like some fucking freak show . What could that benefit a conflicted-ID young person who had just had massive surgery..

"See  ME.   On stage to you all as   the impresario WOKE  HOSTESS ,   of course   I AM much more woke than the unsupportive  parents of our GUEST STAR".

but actually exhibiting the worst kind of crass shallow insensitivity to the emotional and physical trauma Kyler and their parents are going through.

CardinalLolzy · 16/07/2021 16:50

Male sex and female sex both get breast cancer.

Yes I know. I was asking if it was the former.

PollyTucker · 16/07/2021 16:52

Yes personally I do. The amount of education and awareness there is nowadays is so much larger than before. Changing your gender is a big decision and the person would have thought about this before. It is not as easy as ticking a box to get a double mastectomy. If the person is happier and more comfortable with the surgery then they should get it.

Unicorn34 · 16/07/2021 16:54

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Not supporting a child in pain? Jeez - how much pain will someone be in after surgery - and how much more when they look back and wonder why they did this with regret (and anger too)?
For my child it was painful to have breasts - we honestly tried to talk them out of it, got all the professional help we could (which isn't much unfortunately) and watched them shrivel down to a shadow of themselves. They couldn't eat when wearing a binder (our first choice as it wasn't permanent) as they couldn't swallow, wore dark clothes which covered every inch of themselves even if we "popped down to the beach" in hot weather. If you haven't been through the pain of a child/teen hating their body so much that they damage it (self-harm) then you really cannot begin to understand how terrible it is.

I totally get people's views on how a person isn't mentally mature until their are in their mid 20s - we also said this. I am so happy that we stood our ground on having the rest of the physical transition, even the taking of testosterone. We really, really tried to be supportive without telling them what to do - but the heartbreak is massive, the pain debilitating, I really would not wish it on anyone.

Nonmaquillee · 16/07/2021 16:55

@PollyTucker

Yes personally I do. The amount of education and awareness there is nowadays is so much larger than before. Changing your gender is a big decision and the person would have thought about this before. It is not as easy as ticking a box to get a double mastectomy. If the person is happier and more comfortable with the surgery then they should get it.
You sound incredibly naive.

What does it mean to you, to “change your gender”? Please explain.

CardinalLolzy · 16/07/2021 16:55

Polly, what has body type (in this situation, breasts or no breasts) got to do with one's gender? (not sex - gender).
Why do you assume the teen in the op's gender has changed? Are you suggesting they were previously a woman?

HebeMumsnet · 16/07/2021 16:56

We taking this thread down, just temporarily we hope, while we contact the OP.

Cabinfever10 · 16/07/2021 16:57

@Em308
As someone who suffered from body dismorphia (or gender dysphoria as its called now) like most of the girls who end up at the travistock I am gender non conforming autistic female who survived csa and a seriously abuse home. The difference between me and them is that I was treated with watchful waiting where they take a holistic approach and treat the underlying psychological issues that causes the dismorphia/dysphoria rather than affirmation therapy, experimental drugs and amputation of healthy breast tissues. I am also well aware of the damage caused by the current policy and the rapid growth of young women who are detransing and I know with certainty that I would have been one of them were I 20-30 years younger.
The fact is most of the young people who are currently in the system are being failed by it and will suffer the consequences of that failure not the people failing them.
So forgive me for finding this sort of interference and enabling behaviour extremely troubling

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