We need to keep fighting this.

[DevonTF]

I have been trying to understand how we are in the present situation in 2021 - Gender Identity / Queer ( ie - what happened at Redbridge Library today) the loss of women and children rights.

I keep talking to friends - who have no idea. The don't seem to be aware for example that men can be classed as female if they want when recording crimes - including sex-based crimes (I have images of the FOI responses from each police force now to show everyone), and what this means. Men in prisons / in spas / in any place they damn well want to be.

I have been talking it through with my Mum - She feels it is similar to the MagPie scandal of the 1970s. I, my Sister and brothers were all born in the 70s/80s. She recalls this, as a young mother being a terrifying time. Until more and more voices started speaking out.

Is this us now ?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/02/how-paedophiles-infiltrated-the-left-harriet-harman-patricia-hewitt

Yes, I have been thinking the same thing. I am not old enough to remember but I assume before the incest/child sex abuse scandles entered the public conciousness it must have been the level of protection a child had just depended on the parents, and if your parents wernt bothered you were at the mercy of preditors.

I think it has very much gone back to that.

I agree, it's scary to think about how it got this far and why. It made me realise that there are many men (and women) who simply don't value women as a class, and see any attempt by women to centre ourselves or preserve our identity/spaces as disdainful.

We need to keep talking about it, keep telling people about it, keep reminding those that would prefer us to shut up and go away that we will not do that. Women are not just going to take being erased, no way.
Sadly it seems that no matter how much progress women make in society, there will always be those that want to push us back down. We need to always be vigilant. Sad but true.

I watched the Yorkshire Ripper docuseries on Netflix, and how that galvanised tens of thousands of women to march angrily across the UK in the reclaim the nights protests. I think it will have to come to that or something like it.

Keep talking. Keep talking. Keep talking.

I know simply too many well-meaning, intelligent, thoughtful people, who just don't know about any of this...

... yet.

I got quite drunk the other night first time i've been to a pub for dinner and drink in over two years due to pregnancy and then pandemic.. the subject came up and I gave my honest views and concerns. She looked at me and told me she thought I should keep it down incase anyone heard me saying I didn't think it was actually possible to change sex and some things should be protected.

I was mortified when I woke up the next day.
But the fact remains the same for me.
Treat people nicely and with compassion. It is not possible to change sex. Some things should be segregated and protected for women's safety and benefit.

Don't know if i'll be talking about it openly again, though!

Don't know if i'll be talking about it openly again, though!

Unbelievable that it's the people concerned about safeguarding and the wider implications of the preservation of sex-based rights, freedom of thought, the constitution of ideas etc. who are the ones who have to be apprehensive about the consequences of speaking openly.

It's as if the Age of Enlightenment was an aberration.

I keep talking to friends

You’re doing something right OP.

This is what I am doing, amongst other actions - letter writing, meetings etc.

Who are you writing to Leaf?

If you go to the website Sex Matters - they have a list of companies /organisations who support Stonewall, and a template of a letter to send. I have sent it to my bank, my university and a company I spent 11 years with.

@Anotheruser02

Who are you writing to Leaf?

The list so far is:

MP
DWP
CQC
DC’s school
Charity Commission
A University

I think that’s it at the moment!

Issues cover things like: mis-statement of the Equality Act and general conflation of sex and gender, transgender males being housed in women’s prisons, being under the influence of Stonewall… all the usual crap.

@DevonTF

If you go to the website Sex Matters - they have a list of companies /organisations who support Stonewall, and a template of a letter to send. I have sent it to my bank, my university and a company I spent 11 years with.

Here’s the link:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/leave-stonewall/

I’ve only recently realised the extent of this. I naively thought live and let live without realising the ramifications for women, which is actually where I think the majority of people currently are, until they are personally affected. So far I’ve just been talking to friends and my partner about it, who agree and are shocked what’s been happening under our noses. In other news, I’ve just been on Instagram trying to convince someone there are only 2 sexes, what a time to be alive

I think you’re right Black - most people are unaware or choose not to concern themselves with the issues. However, I am convinced that GCers (for want of a better words for the group of people who do not think gender trumps sex, and who can see safeguarding issues with Stonewall law and self-ID etc) are on the rapid increase.

Courage calls to courage everywhere.

@GromblesofGrimbledon

Keep talking. Keep talking. Keep talking.

I know simply too many well-meaning, intelligent, thoughtful people, who just don't know about any of this...

... yet.

This.

Yes, most people have absolutly no idea. I talked today to a young woman. She had never heard of men in womens prisons. I hope she googles it.

I think more people are becoming aware. The articles in the mail recently are starting to have less comments where people don't know what's happening and more GC comments.

On a personal note, I own a business in a fairly rural community so have to be careful what I say generally but some things that have come to light recently can be discussed without fear as there is a real consensus that they are wrong. For instance, everyone seems to agree that men in women's sports are unfair regardless of identity and male sex offenders in women's prisons are a recipe for disaster.

@GromblesofGrimbledon

Keep talking. Keep talking. Keep talking.

I know simply too many well-meaning, intelligent, thoughtful people, who just don't know about any of this...

... yet.

Yes, very true. Most people only want to 'be kind' and don't see the conflicts or the underlying issues.

What's pretty shocking about all of this is how many people are just afraid to even talk about it.

I understand (and sometimes feel the same) that nobody wants to be labelled hateful or a bigot. But I keep thinking - how did it get to this point in an open and democratic society, that people are now afraid to voice a dissenting opinion....scary stuff!

I’m too scared to talk about it to almost people. I work in a university and I’m well aware that I could end up being hounded out of my job. I also see the abuse women get on Twitter and similar. It’s genuinely frightening that we’ve ended up here. I’m happy to cheer lead trans men and women into their new lives, and I have no problem with TWs undergoing hormone treatment and surgery being considered for admission into some female only spaces (though probably not sports), but I find the pressure to accept self ID terrifying and malevolent. The fact that I don’t feel able to state that publicly and under my own name is frankly dystopian.

Genuine question Rose, can I ask which female only spaces do you think TW should be considered for admission in to?

In terms of talking to people, remember that the Maya Forstater case gives protection now, maybe you could start with broaching the subject with non-work colleagues. I started the conversation with my most trusted friend and built it up from there - now I speak to anyone who’s happy to chat - I’m finding that people enjoy the conversation and I’m yet to find someone who doesn’t see the issues with what many TRAs are arguing for.

To be fair, many universities are pretty much a hotbed for a vocal and disruptive minority of trans activists who harass students and staff, so I don't blame RoseAndGeranium for being cautious and reticent.
What about talking to family and friends who aren't connected to the university, Rose? Have you seen the GC Academia Network? So many stories there - www.gcacademianetwork.org/

I have found this from sex matters really helpful as a 'reality check'. Every one of these can be now housed in a women's prison. Every person I have shown this is suddenly outraged and shocked. We need to start getting people to wake up to the reality.

sex-matters.org/posts/prisons/prison_jr/

Sure @Leafstamp — so, I would be comfortable with fully transitioned trans women (by which I mean post ‘bottom’ surgery and hormone therapy) using women’s bathrooms and changing rooms. I am open minded about housing them in women’s prisons in cases where their offences have been non-violent and non-sexual, but I would want there to be a strong consultation process and risk assessment carried out in cooperation with women’s groups and prisoners’ advocates about how (and if) that could be done sensitively and in accordance with the dignity of women prisoners. Women’s refuges I don’t know about, but my instinct is that alternative and tailored facilities for trans men and women would make more sense. Women’s sport I think is a no-go because of the much discussed advantages associated with going through puberty as a male. Essentially I’m all for accommodating as fully as is practical those trans women who have divested themselves in all meaningful ways possible of their physical masculinity. For those that would prefer to remain physically intact, which is fair enough given the implications of that kind of surgery, or are for medical reasons unable to go through full surgical transition, I’d like to see more gender neutral and tailored facilities made available. I don’t actually see why that’s so hard: individual cubicles have been a thing for a while! I recognise that it’s a compromise that neither fully GC thinkers nor TRAs would like, but it’s where I’ve come to stand on the issue. I’m happy to discuss more and I could be persuaded to shift in either direction by reasoned, evidence-based argument, but of course that’s what we get so little of in these discussions thanks in large part to terrifyingly hardline and angry TRAs. The other thing that saddens me about the violence and polarity of the whole trans debate is that I really worry for the vulnerable young people caught up in it. I fear that the unwillingness of TRAs to accept any middle ground positions risks not just pushing those young people into puberty blockers and awful family conflicts, but also reducing the opportunities for them to explore different gender roles and experiences safely and without undue friction. For instance, I don’t think teenage boys who are currently identifying as girls should be put in dormitories with girls on girl guiding trips. I also wouldn’t like to see girls identifying as boys housed with boys. But gender questioning boys being given the opportunity to spend more time trying out their ‘preferred’ gender by doing activities with girl guides seems to me potentially beneficial for all involved. At the moment I worry that those who might otherwise come up with safe and creative ways of organising better integration of gender questioning children and young people don’t feel able to do so because they’ll be attacked by TRAs for not going far enough and thereby being ‘transphobic’. Sorry, that goes beyond what you asked but it’s good to have a place to discuss this!
@NonnyMouse1337 — that’s exactly the problem. I do talk to family and a few carefully chosen friends about these issues, and all are as horrified by it as I am, but I’d never be so bold as to like a JK Rowling tweet (the horror!) lest I find myself unmasked as a TERF and subjected to harassment and boycotting at work. The better legal protection after the Forstater appeal is encouraging, but I don’t want the stress of being treated in the way so many women have when expressing GC views in a higher ed setting. I’ve also drifted away from several previously important friendships because those friends are vociferously in favour of TWAW and are openly hateful about people like Allison Bailey. I’ve honestly never felt so little able to talk about a political or social issue. Brexit and the issues associated with it feel like a haven of good faith discussion and tolerationism by comparison.

Ps I hadn’t seen the GC Academia Network, no. Thanks for linking to it— going to have a read now!

What I find really depressing is that so many of my family/friends are not interested/just don't see it. They think it won't affect them. One friend got quite annoyed with me and said she just hasn't got time for it because she is too busy.
The majority of men of my acquaintance don't care either, yet they are all generally nice, educated people.
The younger ones are all going along with it and equate GC with being homophobic, racist etc.

@endofthelinefinally Yes, a usually very politically engaged friend of mine just shrugs and says she doesn’t actually believe women’s shelters are being defunded as a result of TRA pressure and that if we ignore the TRA movement that it will all just blow over. It’s frustrating —vulnerable women are suffering NOW. Decent women are being forced out of jobs because they politely push for the word ‘women’ to have meaning NOW. This isn’t some neurotic’s hypothetical furrier, it’s what is already going on!

Sadly, most people don't care about things (anything, really) until it starts affecting them. It's easy to dismiss women in prisons being raped and sexually assaulted. Not so easy to ignore a bloke swinging his dick in your daughter's face in a women's sauna. Unfortunately, I think more of these things need to happen for people to get really upset and outraged.