The need for validation

[Outhere]

I was talking with my 13 year old niece about her friends and she commented that one of them was so popular because she was 'so validating'. I asked what that meant in real terms and whether she could give me an example and she said she wasn't sure but there's 'just something about her'. I thought the phrase was really interesting and reflected on language and how I may have thought about the qualities my friends had at that age. Validation certainly wouldn't have come into it and I think I would have considered a good friend as someone who I could have fun with and probably someone who was loyal.

I'm curious as to when 'validation' became 'a thing'. I know it is oft used in slogans in reference to gender and I have to profess that I'm unsure what the act of validation looks like, or why it has become so important to some people. Do people really need others to validate them? If so, what does that look like, and why? When did our sense of self become so reliant on others approval? I was also thinking about other phrases which I find bizarre too, like 'speak your truth'. Again, I don't think I really understand what this means. What truth am I speaking if it's not my own?

I've been pondering whether the rise of the internet is partly why this language has evolved; in a world where a quick like or emoji supports your position, or confirms that you look good in your picture. Neither of which take any more effort than a cursory glance and action, nor require much thinking. Is that validation? And why is there such a drive to seek this? And does this feed into the distinct lack of critical thinking that appears present on many SM platforms? I see a lot of slogans and phrases that get thrown out as statements, that don't appear to mean anything but garner many likes and support.

Apologies for my ramblings, it's not entirely sex/gender related, but could easily be applied to it. I guess what I'm asking is how have we got here and why is there such a desire for other people to 'validate' others? It feels very alien to me, however that may be because I'm of 'an age' where I have a secure sense of self and couldn't imagine needing someone else to approve of this.

The big difference with gender identity and other religions is that we are allowed to say that we don’t believe in other religions (at least in the modern day, in the Western world) without repercussions, without being labelled hateful or bigoted, and without fear of criminalisation, ostracism and destitution due to unemployability.

I do think that we need to keep making the point about the religious nature of this movement until it is widely and formally recognised as such. At that point I hope it will be on an equal level with other religious beliefs instead of the current situation where it is fast becoming the new state religion imposed on all of us through state institutions.

@MoreAloneTime

The other thing that strikes me is the level of grovelling that seems to be expected after a person has "been educated" for accidentally having the wrong opinion or using the wrong word. No good person would expect you to do that for them.

Oh yes. And you're never actually forgiven.

Sorry Floral I seem to have repeated what you said I didn’t realise quite how long I had been distracted for before pressing post!

I share your hopes about the repealing of the GRA and I agree with what you say about how gender identity has more privileges than any one religion should have in a secular state. I am sympathetic to your opinions on the C of E too but not quite sure how it could be extricated from the state… still that I think is probably a different and very in depth discussion.

We mention that in the thread I linked up-thread. Right now genderism is being treated like a civil rights movement because it has cleverly cloaked itself in the language of race and sexual orientation, which are ontological realities, not beliefs.

You're completely correct that we need to keep pressing the point that this is a wholly metaphysical belief system, and as such, goes in the exact same bracket as Catholicism, or Scientology, or any woo thinking you might find in Spirit and Destiny magazine. Believe it if you wish. But you have no authority whatsoever over those who reject your faith.

And so to come full circle, it’s the ultimate religion for those with the need for validation. You can become fully validated, praised, admired, treated with kid gloves and sucked up to, and be always right, meanwhile claiming persecution and victimhood. For those in the outer circle, the “allies”, you can seek validation by doing the requisite sucking up and praising and educating yourself and denouncing the infidel.

Oh, and I only mentioned the CofE because I am against any religion having privileges. Disestablishment would be a far more complicated matter than simply repealing the GRA and getting Stonewall law out of institutions and organizations.

I'll also point out, and this is something I've talked about before - this is why the jargon changes so much. Controlling religious groups use language to mark who is in and who is outside. If you use outdated jargon, you demonstrate you're not quite in. The ever shifting terminology functions as a way to keep adherents slightly off centre trying to fit in, and mark out who is unacceptably heretical.

That older thread is really interesting, thanks for the link. I wholeheartedly agree about the link to religion too.

I'm relieved that I have never felt the pull towards SM. I do have various accounts but I don't write anything on them. At one point they were used for some research and I found them quite helpful for networking, but I found it really bizarre how people publish their whole lives. And this isn't about criticising the young, I have acquaintances of a similar age (& older) who do this too. I can definitely see how likes could become addictive and the psychological impact of this.

When I was younger, there was of course that drive to find yourself and your place in the world, and this involved the usual tribalism and experimentation. I agree with PP though, it feels magnified now and the level of recantation that is demanded if you say the wrong word or hold a different view point, is disproportionate to the 'crime'. That clip of Love Island caught my attention because of this, just like when my niece said 'validating', as both incidents reminded me so strongly of what's happening within the conversations around sex and gender. It made me think about the fact that the reactions we see, and the language used, permeates much further than to this topic solely and I'm not sure I'd given that much thought to it before.

Yes and the Hate Crime legislation in Scotland will effectively act as a Blasphemy law to enforce Gender Ideology.

And punish Heretics.

www.jessdewahls.com/original-artwork-1/heretic

I’m on Twitter because I’m meant to have a presence for work, but it’s very minimal. It keeps me in touch with developments and other people in my field and I have a few people I follow who post things I’m interested in. I very occasionally do a tweet or reply to something, and I tend to get 1 or 2 likes, sometimes none.

I kind of like the challenge of keeping it at that level and not getting sucked in - while marvelling at the virtue-signalling and attention-seeking that goes on. I could very easily get into a lot of arguments if I was inclined, so I can see why people do.

It's not just issues of sex and gender where I've seen this need for repentance. The constantly shifting terminology used around these sorts of things makes sense and I can't help but feel these people absolutely love it when they get to "call someone out" for a transgression.

If teach my children anything it's beware of those who love aggressive shaming. Even if they are in the right morally and the callee out in the wrong its still the sign of a very cruel and vindictive person.

I post this video occasionally, because I found its discussion of "identity" and "finding oneself" as a modern cultural phenomenon, compared to pre-90s stories, interesting. Linked direct to relevant section - about the middle 1/3 of the video.

So maybe we can pin some of it on Disney? Or maybe they're just following the cultural trend...

You'll also notice the push back if you do suggest it's religious in character, btw. Mostly that's not deliberate, it's how the mechanism works, but the reason genderists try and hold their beliefs firmly in the civil rights/quasi scientific realm, and use all manner of doctored stats and link to the same opinion pieces in scientific magazines all the time is because the power this has is through it not being acknowledged as a religion.

Essentially, you have a lot of people insisting the gender version of transubstantiation is a fact, and shoring up their belief by bullying people on social media and institutional capture which has been going on for years. Secular society would rightly push back if it wasn't for the deliberate manipulation on this. So keep highlighting it.

I think it must be really difficult to root your self esteem in solid achievements when you can essentially compare yourself to the whole world.

For example, in my small pool of peers growing up I had an identity based in part on being good at running and violin. Had I grown up looking at my running times online compared to all other kids who liked running, I'd probably not have felt very good at it.

I think that's why identity is now so inward looking, outward looking is now vast and overwhelming.

This is just teenage ramblings, not an evolution of language. As you say, she can't even explain what it means. My 12-13 year old asked for an aesthetic bedroom.... when quizzed she couldn't even say what aesthetic meant, it was just a label for a style.

When I hear about validation in teenagers I think about insecure people needing validation from other people because they have a very low sense of self esteem. Indeed, I sought that from men as a teen age as I had a shockingly bad home life and was desperate for attention. I was exploited by men so they got sex and I got five minutes of feeling like somebody wanted me before it ash came crashing down. Teenage boys often fall into gangs or hardcore football groups so they feel they belong.

I would be very worried if somebody described my daughter as very validating. I have hopefully taught her to question things instead of just going along with what everybody says. Critical thinking is of vital importance.

That’s a really interesting point FloralBunting as society has reached the conclusion that religion isn’t “real” for most people or is separated from scientific fact so this new religion seeks to differentiate itself from the very word religion just as each new religion declares itself the new one and only true way of being/thinking/behaving and the final word.

Christianity no doubt saw itself as a totally different thing and having nothing in common at all with all the awful paganism that went before…

The new religion is being preached as fact through the state, a silent revolution has taken place. And back to the OP social media and young people have been a big part of it.

I was sorry to see LadyBonnibel’s deletion. If I remember rightly, I think there were important points there about how religion can appeal to those seeking a place to fit in and looking for a sense of security, certainty, redemption and so on. I do think that those who are not getting their needs for belonging, closeness and friendship met by their family and local community are often drawn to religious communities indeed both Christianity and Gender Identity offer a new family fairly explicitly. Many people need some sense of being supported or grounded in some supportive structure and the knowledge that there are people who will be there for us through thick and thin. Religious groups offer that security, stability and reliability for some of their adherents.

@Peppallama

Social media likes have their root in behaviourism so it's not surprising we have a generation of skinner-trained rats looking for their reward.

I do worry a lot about social media. From my window into it it all seems to narrow, narcissistic, naval gazing. I wonder how the prolific posters in my field get any work done at all.

This has got to be the crux of it, hasn't it? That innocent little 'like' click is changing the behaviour and possibly the thought patterns of a whole generation. Anyone watched Nosedive from the series Black Mirror on Netflix?

Agree completely that small failures are the way to help children build strength and deep confidence. I was usually last in the races and sports at school. Taught me to enjoy participating but to find something else to excel at.

Can't help thinking that this need to receive and offer fake validation is going to go awfully badly wrong at some point. And it makes those of us who grew up in different times and who, when we tell you we love you, or that we think your work is excellent actually mean it, seem grudging.

@NonnyMouse1337

I signed up for some online event last year - I can't remember what it was actually about but the panel and most of the audience seemed to be of the lib fem type. It was atrocious and a complete waste of an hour of my life. The whole hour was taken up by these women babbling on about stuff and throwing in all these buzzwords - thank you so-and-so for speaking your truth... we see you and affirm your truth blah blah.

The event description gave the impression the panel were going to give you practical knowledge and tips, and nothing of the sort materialised. Just a bunch of women 'validating' each other for an hour over anecdotes. It was dire. At the end, the (presumably) women attendees were typing in the zoom chat gushing nonsense like 'amazing talk', 'omg fantastic evening, thank you!!!!' and I was thinking 'huh? Were we even at the same event?!'.
Not a single question or challenge in the Q&A that was remotely critical or asking the speakers anything that was mildly challenging. And I remember thinking at the time - no wonder 'feminism' hasn't achieved much in recent years if this is the level of lib fem 'discussion'. Very surreal experience. I don't understand the bizarre language at all.

Reminds me of MLM culture.

@NecessaryScene

I post this video occasionally, because I found its discussion of "identity" and "finding oneself" as a modern cultural phenomenon, compared to pre-90s stories, interesting. Linked direct to relevant section - about the middle 1/3 of the video.

So maybe we can pin some of it on Disney? Or maybe they're just following the cultural trend...

Just watched this. Excellent. Thank you. Snow White as a model of resilience against the current generation of Disney identity-led characters.

It is definitely a weird thing that at the same time as we're determined to teach our kids resilience, we are constantly telling them they can be / do whatever they want and validating their "dreams" which are just fucking nonsense pie in the sky. That really isn't kind, is it? It's like those people we all laugh at on X Factor and say "why did they do it?!" Because no one ever told them they're shit!

Although, god forbid a female child want to be something feminine-coded like a nurse or mother.

I was sorry to see LadyBonnibel’s deletion. If I remember rightly, I think there were important points there about how religion can appeal to those seeking a place to fit in and looking for a sense of security, certainty, redemption and so on.

Oh bum. You can say it about actual religion that we all agree is essentially unevidenced beliefs, but not...

Sorry @LadyBonnibel I've really enjoyed all the contributions on this thread.

Thanks to to @NecessaryScene for the Snow White video. Some of the behaviors of "look at me" "validate me" and stark hero individualism in out culture made this pandemic much more difficult to get through collectively as a community than other global crisis in the past. I think that's partially why those seeking mental healthcare is on the rise. We didn't have the optimism and hard work ethos to fall back on, as discussed in Snow White.

@MoreAloneTime

Maybe non-binary is like the mystery of the trinity that the ordinary could never understand.

People say we've moved on from needing religion in our lives but there seems to be a human tendency to unconsciously recreate it.

hilarious but I think the analogy with religion is very apt consider also the group think and the need to demonstrate that you are one of the in group/the elect and how you demonstrate that by accusing others recently I keep being reminded of The Crucible, but it's so long since I read t (for mock O level I think) that I'm not sure if I'm imagining the parallels.

I really don’t think you are imagining the parallels with the Crucible unfortunately.