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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender Americans can choose gender on passport

14 replies

jellyfrizz · 01/07/2021 18:03

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/01/us-passports-gender-trans-non-binary-state-department

How would a gender category be of use on a passport? What information would that give about a person? They may as well just remove the section completely.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/07/2021 18:20

It's not like passports are a means of accurately identifying a person or anything... Hmm

jellyfrizz · 01/07/2021 18:46

If anything why don't they have sex and gender?

OP posts:
joolzfromyork · 01/07/2021 18:56

@jellyfrizz

How would a gender category be of use on a passport? What information would that give about a person? They may as well just remove the section completely.

Excellent idea ... No really
I fail to understand why I need to declare sex/gender in so many ways in life

Driving License - why?
Sign up for Social Media - why?
Passports - why?
ID (issued to confirm Age) - why?
Any Form issued by Govt - why?
Any form issued by Local Council - why?

Its on my Birth Certificate & is attached to my National Insurance records. The only other people who need to keep track is my Dr. Everywhere else seems irrelevant.

OhHolyJesus · 01/07/2021 19:06

Well I hope this isn't going to be one of the things we adopt in the U.K. or infiltrates culture or teaching, like critical race theory.

The BBC article provides a reminder that Christie Elan-Cane's case begin soon, on the 12th.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57682881

Delphinium20 · 01/07/2021 19:12

I find this reason, reported in the NYTimes baffling, "... will create a gender marker on passports and citizenship certificates for people who identify as nonbinary or intersex, or otherwise do not conform to traditional gender roles."

So, do the vast majority of Americans conform to traditional gender roles? I really thought I was cooler than that. I guess not Hmm

highame · 02/07/2021 17:11

I am sure I read that scanners in the airport can tell someone's sex. I did indeed. I would guess that regardless of what a transgender person wants, airport security is paramount and the chances of getting this changed are minimal. Airport staff have procedures for this eventuality but I would guess these are not always followed. Would the gender marker make security staff less jumpy, I doubt that very much

transdimensional · 02/07/2021 17:17

@jellyfrizz

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jul/01/us-passports-gender-trans-non-binary-state-department

How would a gender category be of use on a passport? What information would that give about a person? They may as well just remove the section completely.

I don't think they can remove it completely because currently it is part of the International Civil Aviation Organisation's international standard for passports. Think currently the field is called Sex, but could be wrong.
transdimensional · 02/07/2021 17:30

Here's ICAO's description of the passport "sex" field: "Sex of the holder, to be specified by use of the single initial commonly used in the language of the State where the document is issued and, if translation into English, French or Spanish is necessary, followed by an oblique and the capital letter F for female, M for male, or X for unspecified."

Thelnebriati · 02/07/2021 17:34

IMO the current drive to destroy meaningful ID, is actually designed to provoke a backlash in which every single one of us will be forced to have biometric ID.

I sincerely hope I am proved wrong in time.

2Olives1Onion · 03/07/2021 13:05

(I’m in the process of renewing my US passport, so I’m immersed in the forms and guidance at the moment.)

I don’t think the US plans to add a new “gender” field on the passport. The officials announcing and implementing the changes seem to be using “sex marker” and “gender marker” interchangeably, and the media is running with that rather than doing real investigative reporting. Currently there is a field for “Sex” on both the application forms and the actual passport, no “gender” field, and yet the new guidance advises how to fill out the “existing gender marker” or “change the gender printed on your passport”. So all this “adding a third gender marker” - pretty sure it just means adding an X to the allowed values under the existing SEX field.

The change has already been made to allow the existing SEX marker to be set as or changed to M or F based purely on reporting by the applicant. This isn't only for "transgender Americans"; anyone entitled to a US passport has the same opportunity. The next change is most likely to introduce X (and possibly additional values) for the SEX marker, still on a self-description basis. I don’t think the SEX field will be removed unless/until the ICOA make a change in their requirements/recommendations, but there may be some leeway with additional indicators besides X/O (which other countries already use) as long as their purpose is clear.

RE the need for a SEX marker on a passport at all - there was a case in 2018 in which an applicant sued the US State Department and their local passport office for refusing to issue a passport without a SEX of M or F (they’d requested X, or nothing). The applicant lost, but the reasons the government put forth for needing the sex marker and for restricting it to M/F seemed to be mainly administrative/technical rather than real-life-practical. Basically they argued that sex is used as an element in verifying identity and an individual should have all related identifiers matching across different pieces of documentation and different US government departments. Discrepancies of any characteristic used as part of “identification” would cause technical issues, increase workload, and pose security and/or fraud risks. There doesn’t seem to be any substantial reason stated why sex specifically needs to be part of the set of characteristics used, except that it is already in use and so needs analysis to make sure there are no unexpected negative impacts if changed.

That said, all of that analysis is US-focused; the US can’t control (or necessarily predict) how other countries’ border control or law enforcement or even civil society (for example, a hostel checking a foreign visitor’s passport to verify a reservation for an all-male or all-female shared dormitory) will use the info, and whether there might be complications for the bearer in the case of a sex marker which some foreign official or agency perceives as inaccurate or questionable or even fraudulent.

Also, some US states already issue birth certificates with SEX = X not just in cases of an adult requesting a change but also for newborns - so breaking the link between the passport SEX field and any documentation technically closes the gap for anyone who genuinely has no official record of a male or female sex in that they could simply choose at random. (Which I’m sure is not much comfort to people in the situation, but does give the US government some legal breathing room before adding X.)

merrymouse · 03/07/2021 13:23

[quote joolzfromyork]@jellyfrizz

How would a gender category be of use on a passport? What information would that give about a person? They may as well just remove the section completely.

Excellent idea ... No really
I fail to understand why I need to declare sex/gender in so many ways in life

Driving License - why?
Sign up for Social Media - why?
Passports - why?
ID (issued to confirm Age) - why?
Any Form issued by Govt - why?
Any form issued by Local Council - why?

Its on my Birth Certificate & is attached to my National Insurance records. The only other people who need to keep track is my Dr. Everywhere else seems irrelevant.[/quote]
I agree - either there is a clear argument for including personal information or there isn’t.

I can think of situations where sex is sometimes relevant, but can’t think of any situation where gender is relevant.

Why is the sex marker on the passport in the first place? If they can’t answer this question, why not just remove it?

merrymouse · 03/07/2021 13:24

@Delphinium20

I find this reason, reported in the NYTimes baffling, "... will create a gender marker on passports and citizenship certificates for people who identify as nonbinary or intersex, or otherwise do not conform to traditional gender roles."

So, do the vast majority of Americans conform to traditional gender roles? I really thought I was cooler than that. I guess not Hmm

I thought the NY Times was a bit more progressive!
timeisnotaline · 03/07/2021 13:32

I saw a trans/queer discussion on this and a lot were pretty ambivalent - thought it would lead to more discrimination and being pulled aside searches at airports, which seemed fair enough. That’s how I feel about pronouns at work (for much more unconscious bias reasons than the TSA, work are great, and it’s a hypothetical, pronouns are not required or even encouraged) - having to announce I’m a she is a bad idea.
In general I do hear about this and wonder how much benefit having sex is on passport! Plenty of arguments for and against, but I don’t want sex and gender confused, there are only negatives with that approach!

EsmaCannonball · 03/07/2021 13:58

I pity the poor female security guards who are going to have to pat down or strip search someone with a dick.

Isn't this potentially going to cause the individuals concerned a lot of problems? Imagine travelling to a country where the security guards and passport control have yet to be indoctrinated with Trans Women Are Women, and some official decides that what they are seeing with their eyes doesn't match what's on your passport. It's either going to force other countries to accept American gender ideology (spread that gospel) or a lot of disruptive, oppositional personality types are going to get even more chances to sue organisations for misgendering.

I guess this raises a question relating to objective material reality: if you are trans-identified and come from a country that has self-id, what happens when you travel to a country that doesn't recognise it and has lawful sex-segregation?

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