Do people really believe this?

[Queuingroundtheblock]

I know lots of people have had the same experience of losing friends over this but it has just happened to me and I can hardly believe it. Fell out with a gay male friend of over 30 years because he thinks I am bigotted for not believing TWAW. His reason? They (TW) have different chromosomes to men. When I pointed out that this isn't true he doubled down and said it was and that a lot of them were more female than me because they reasoned and dressed like real women. We are now avoiding the subject but basically now I know what he really thinks of women! Where does this different chromosome thing come from though? He seemed to think it was common knowledge. Is this something we should be insisting on correcting?

What a bigot he is. Surely trans men are men and if he refuses to be intimate with them that's a genital fetish and literal violence.

Find all the stuff spouted along those lines about transwomen and hit him with the trans man version.

I dont think they do tbh.

They'd stuff up with pronouns or wouldn't recognise one in the flesh when they hadn't been told like the rest of us would. They have no more of a gift identifying trans.people as anyone else. And as fir being chromosomal different if that were tru all they'd need to do was a blood test or a Bain scan amd solve all the issues in an instant.

What they do believe though ( the men) is that woman are lesser and should just do as they are told and aren't worth worrying about. And this trans stuff is the perfect t cover to get away with treating us like shit.

I believe also that tbe wonen who claim to believe this think if they are nice enough and behave well enough then the men and males they are sacrificing their safety privacy and dignity for will protect them. That they make some list of approved women who won't be affected by any of it.

Those women will sadly find out the hard way that there is no protection. They aren't liked any more than the rest of us. And if anything ever happens to them as a result of a lack of safe spaces or sone male shows up for a date with nefarious intentions from a.lesbian dating app, they will be as at risk and alone as any other women.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

@Queuingroundtheblock

How does one reason & dress more like a women ffs?? Yes, I wasn't too impressed by that! Btw - TWAW and TMAM - but he wouldn't date a TM!!

The fact that he wouldn't date a TM tells you everything you need to know, doesn't it. Deep down he knows it's all bullshit but you should stfu and do as you are told.

Sadly, people believe in all kinds of bullshit even when there's no clear evidence for it and even (especially!) when they are proven wrong. It's a human failing.

The gender nonsense is simply the left wing / liberal version. They make fun of climate change deniers, creationists, anti-vaxxers, homeopathy etc, but indulge in their own versions of silly, superstitious thinking and pseudoscience. Lots of creationists will trot out 'studies' to prove their points. Gender believers do the same.

It's easy to make fun of those in other groups and be completely blind or in denial to the stupidity within your own.

It demonstrates how little people understand of science. All of us who post here know that trans women don't have different chromosomes from men. It's an insane idea. But a lot of people have really weird ideas about the biology relating to trans people - they think that after surgical reassignment trans women have a womb and ovaries, for example. They have no understanding of how crude surgical reassignment is. And then there's the whole "female brain in male body" business. It's an uphill struggle arguing with people who don't understand the basics.

Loosing friends is a particularly bitter pill. Two very long term friends - of over 25yrs - have blocked me over this and you know what? It's not because we disagree.

There are people who disagree. Most agree but some are 'fine' with all it, which is fine.

The ones who blocked me didn't seem to like me talking about it, and looking back, seem to be misogynists....

Losing friends over this is hard. It's upsetting and hurts.

Imagine what it's like when you lose your treasured son or daughter because you believe that bio sex exists and does matter.

Imagine what it's like to fear being accused of a hate crime if you 'misgender' your own child.

Imagine how disturbing it is to be forced to call your daughter your son.

I have had this duscussion on a large, well known car forum. The topic was Laurel Hubbard, where a few people were trying to say that LH had changed sex. I pointed out that no human in history had changed sex, LH had gone through a male puberty, competed as a male weightlifter and shouldn't be in women's sports. Then someone made comments about how unfair it was for Caster Semenya. I then pointed out that CS had a XYDSD so was male, as were the other two athletes on the podium with CS in Rio.
The big problem, is when you supply proof/links and they are decried as being right wing or Christian extremist.
Probably best to bow out of the argument and let the other person stew in their cauldron of ignorance.

Does that mean that some TM are more of a man than he is? Or did this only apply to TW?

Please please ask him this!

As for the chromosomes thing, apparently some of the clinics used to do karyotype testing of their trans-identifying/dysphoric patients - but they stopped as they didn't find any difference between them and the rest of the population. Males who identify as women are just as male as any other male.

What this thinking shows up for me is how pervasive the idea of male males and females having completely different brains is. It's really made me open my eyes to how many people hold these sexist ideas.

I've had a very similar experience to you, OP, with a gay male friend. We're still on speaking terms, but we can't discuss that topic anymore.

I just don't think he thought it through until I pointed out the impact these beliefs have on women's lives. It became a bit more real to him when I pointed out he couldn't exclude TM from his dating pool lest he be called a bigot. He actually physically recoiled at that suggestion. A lot of people just dont get it until you directly relate it to their own lives.

Tell him “A lot of TM are more male than you because they reason and dress like real men“ Emphasise the real Tell him you know TM are more men than he is because they’re good at DIY, have beards, like football, drinking beer and spending time in their sheds.

When he gets pissed off, tell him that that’s the mirror of what he said: men are merely a bunch of stereotypes that any woman could do a lot better, right?

Then tell him you’re surprised that he’s clinging to such an anti-science, regressive ideology. I’ve completely lost patience with misogynists like this.

Sorry OP, that you have discovered that your friend is very sexist.

I think that many people who have no vested interest in the situation outsource their critical thinking to influencers, friends and the groups they belong to. That is what we see on here. Some activists pop on and try to silence those discussing it and have nothing to offer except recycled trope and emotive hyperbole.

Believing in a concept of 'true woman' is offensive. He is the bigot, not you. The fact that he can't have a reasoned conversation about it is also very worrying. Do you want him as a friend?

Do you want him as a friend?
Yes! I just want him to understand that women exist too! I don't think he really gets what the consequences of "be nice" are. He kep citing the example of a local teenager who has been in the news and has apparently been welcomed with open arms by the girls in his class but the article I read was actually really alarming. This child was teased for being gay....told he couldn't wear sparkly clothes....or play with "girls' toys"....before deciding to transition. Obviously I don't know this child at all but I would have thought that my friend would have empathised more rather than just accepting that if you like sparkly things (and yes they did actually say that!) you are obviously a girl.

I'm sorry but thats one of the stupidest things I've ever heard, and in my menopausal post lock down loss of social niceties I'd have to tell him straight too.

Yes some people seem to think woman is basically an outfit and makeup. And that these feminine outfits magically change your DNA.

It lunatic behaviour, but suits some males views on women, so that's where we are.

I'm sorry OP, it's so difficult. I dread having this conversation with a good friend of mine who I've known for about 15 years.

He is gay and has had problems with his family re coming out, and can be quite sensitive about stuff. I worry that he will see me as just another homophobic bigot so I haven't brought it up. However I will not lie or pretend about this stuff if it is brought up.

I do think that for some gay people they see this as just supporting another minority group who are struggling etc. Without looking past that into what is really going on.

You could come at it from the angle of it being harmful to gay people - i.e. removing the right of same sex attraction, in favour of same gender attraction.

There is a gender critical gay guy - Sheridan something, can't remember his surname . But he does really good blog posts on how damaging gender ideology and queer theory is, from the perspective of a gay man.

That is shocking to hear from a friend OP

Sheridan Sinclair is a good read.

There is also Lesbian and Gay News.

By the OP’s friend’s logic does that mean that a transman who fancies women is more of a man than he is? Wouldn’t that and all the other gender stereotypes he apparently believes in be some sort of internalised homophobia, particularly him finding the article about the local child heartwarming rather than worrying?

I suppose he hasn’t woken up yet to the horror of transing away the gay… maybe that horror is just too terrifying for some gay men to face. I think that sometimes about some of the women who are unhinged trans activists, perhaps the terrifying reality of what gender identity theory and queer theory mean for women and children is more than they can cope with so they work extra hard on denial by attacking anyone who speaks the truth on biological reality, safeguarding and women’s rights. Hands over ears and lalalalalaaa

@FloralBunting

Over the past few years it's become apparent to me that humanity is afflicted in the main with a toxic mix of laziness and a large proportion of us just not being able to reason logically. Frankly, I think that fact that we are intelligent enough as a species to create amazing technical advances is utterly astonishing when you honestly address how remarkably gullible and biddable we are as a species.

Yup. But I think that maybe it's getting stupider.