The positive birth company

[Blackandwhitehorse]

I’ve just been made aware of the absurd post from the positive birth company (on Instagram) apparently now being pregnant and giving birth is no longer a ‘women centred’ event. I didn’t see the original comments but they (over 1000 comments) were switched off due to ‘hate’. Although reading comments on the post after they seemed more like reasonable questions.. I’ve only just been made aware of what’s actually been happening with all of this, due to Jess de Whals but now my eyes are open and I can’t believe what has been happening.

Of yes how could I have forgotten the evening standard piece from Ayesha Haraika. I think I had wiped it out as it gave me so much rage.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/comment/cruelty-hate-trans-debate-moderate-voices-heard-b940913.html%3famp

They are after our periods as well. Someone I follow was pressured into changing the joy of being a menstruating women to human instead. In the comments though a person with a trans son said thanks for changing it and being inclusive my son hates to be reminded and having his period. WTAF then, so why the need to change the language from women and remind these trans men of what they don’t even want to have?! Sorry that was garbled, partly from trying to discuss a bizarre situation

So the word causes trauma but a monthly bleed is manageable? So fragile - the cure isn’t making everyone else change.

Just out of curiosity I nerved myself to look up the PBC on Instagram. They posted a few days ago about all the 'hate' they'd received, leading to a decision to 'turn these comments off'. They get immediate approving pats on the back from Freddy McConnell (natch) and an American transman called Danny Wakefield who appears to have posted a video of themselves giving birth last year.

Along with lots of fawning posts from handmaidens there are several very polite ones troubled that previous comments (no doubt deemed hateful) have been deleted. The PBC simply refuse to accept that they've erased the comments and just keep repeating that they've turned them off because they won't listen to 'hate'. But one poster claims over a thousand comments have simply disappeared.

If so, how very inclusive of them.

I have Siobhan Miller's book. It refers to women all the way through (but was published back in 2016 or something).

The idea that birth should not centre women is a very new tack for the company and is disappointing. I certainly won't be spending any further money on anything the PBC have to offer.

If they want to focus on men who give birth then that’s their affair. The rest of us can go elsewhere where the whole focus is on women who give birth.

I am amazed at how much attention and time/money is lavished on this incredible tiny proportion of the ‘developed’ world (because I can’t see this happening in developing countries) population of the world.

I suspect there are more £/$100mil+ lottery wins as a % of the population.

For god’s sake, I am so fucking SICK of this bullshit!

So there are transmen and “non-binary” people who want to neither identify nor be identified as female and yet still use their female body for the most female thing it is capable of doing- and instead of pointing out the raging fucking hypocrisy of this, what we’re supposed to do is say “oh yes, of course not only women get pregnant and give birth!” and never utter the words woman and mother again in any pregnancy or motherhood related context, because apparently menstruating, having penetrative sex in their vaginas, being pregnant and giving birth didn’t remind them that they are female but being referred to as a woman or a mother might push them over the edge?

You know what I find funny? As a gender non-conforming woman and lifelong feminist who has never felt comfortable with what society thinks a woman should be, the first time I really felt like a woman and at home in my womanhood was the first time I was pregnant and giving birth. I felt connected to millenia of women and I felt like women were strong and powerful and could do anything. And then post-birth I found so many great women supporting other women through things like breastfeeding and birth trauma and it felt brilliant. Saying that birth isn't women-centred and taking that away from us feels DISempowering. We've got something only we can do and we're allowed to be proud of it and proud of being female. (I'm obviously not saying that being female is all about giving birth or that you're not a woman if you don't have children, so no twisting my words, please, usual suspects)

Thank you @manatsu for that lovely post.

And for the poster who said
"If you no longer use the word woman, you obscure the context within which a woman-centred birth matters in the first place."

I am a doula and hypnobirthing coach and I howl with anger and sadness when I see yet another group or birth worker sideline women from in their language in an attempt to meet the loud and vocal needs of men who wish to seperate women from their biology. We talk about the importance if words, of making women feel safe and looked after but in order to be inclusive we cause hurt to them by minimising their experiences and pushing aside their identities.

There was a fairly robust discussion on one of our groups recently which resulted in the moderators consulting an inclusivity consultant who focuses on LQBTQIA issues and inviting us to pay to attend their training.

So rather than helping us to understand how to meet the needs of the vast majority of our potential clients, we are invited to pay to be lectured on why our beliefs are wrong.

@manatsu

You know what I find funny? As a gender non-conforming woman and lifelong feminist who has never felt comfortable with what society thinks a woman should be, the first time I really felt like a woman and at home in my womanhood was the first time I was pregnant and giving birth. I felt connected to millenia of women and I felt like women were strong and powerful and could do anything. And then post-birth I found so many great women supporting other women through things like breastfeeding and birth trauma and it felt brilliant. Saying that birth isn't women-centred and taking that away from us feels DISempowering. We've got something only we can do and we're allowed to be proud of it and proud of being female. (I'm obviously not saying that being female is all about giving birth or that you're not a woman if you don't have children, so no twisting my words, please, usual suspects)

This

I felt this too, I totally relate to what you say here.

ChateauMargaux I am so glad to know that there are some woman centred doulas out there!

I would love to see doulas, lactation consultants and independent midwives clearly and unashamedly advertising as woman centred and committed to using woman centred language as default but tailoring services for individual needs. “Let the market decide”. Women dependant on NHS services are not in a position to vote with their purses on this but the NHS can and does learn from best practice of Independent Midwives, doulas and lactation consultants.

I am just catching up with last week's Dragon's Den and The Positive Birth Company has just been on and received quite a significant equity offer.

If that is a new development, has that an investment come at a price? This is of course pure speculation, but if two dragons are now also on board then the company is no longer a one woman enterprise, but instead watered down however small the percentage given away. (10%)

That's a bit galling considering she basically copied Milli Hill (who has had to let go of her positive birth movement).

@AngeloMysterioso

For god’s sake, I am so fucking SICK of this bullshit!

So there are transmen and “non-binary” people who want to neither identify nor be identified as female and yet still use their female body for the most female thing it is capable of doing- and instead of pointing out the raging fucking hypocrisy of this, what we’re supposed to do is say “oh yes, of course not only women get pregnant and give birth!” and never utter the words woman and mother again in any pregnancy or motherhood related context, because apparently menstruating, having penetrative sex in their vaginas, being pregnant and giving birth didn’t remind them that they are female but being referred to as a woman or a mother might push them over the edge?

This. Absolutely. Flowers so fragile that seeing the word “woman” on a post about giving birth has then in conniptions, but they’re planning on having and raising a baby?!?! They better get a bit tougher, because anyone who can’t be reminded of the fact that they’re actually a woman whilst being about to push a whole human out of their female body and raise it really needs to examine their sense of perspective, not be danced around like a child themselves.

@SmallPug

That's a bit galling considering she basically copied Milli Hill (who has had to let go of her positive birth movement).

I didn't look at hypnobirthing or such when pregnant with any of mine, so these are names and companies I was not aware of. I have just read a little of the Milli Hill thread and I can understand that pov fully.

Circle the wagons! Circle the wagons! People are saying things we don't like.

It's pathetic.

Shock horror people are saying women give birth?!

Why are we all not talking about menstraters as everyone knows women can be full of testosterone and have a penis.
2+2 = whatever he said

I'm sorry, I am very confused. I have read a few threads about this and I still can't figure it out. I appreciate this might have been discussed elsewhere so apologies if I am being repetitive but I seem to have suddenly been hit around the head with this and I feel like I was transported to a paralel universe without my knowledge or consent, so please bear with me.

Is the word woman being erased because it excludes transmen or because it reminds transwomen they can't give birth?

If option 1, the solution should surely be to change the wording to women and transmen, no? "And" would be more inclusive, i think, as it wouldn't deny anyone.

If option 2, wtaf?! There are many women (biological females) that don't have periods, suffer from infertility, had to have a mastectomy and they don't demand that our language change to accommodate the fact that they can't take part in something that is intrinsically female because they would feel excluded otherwise. They are still women.

So if TWAW why do they need to erase the word woman from anything they are not part of instead of accepting all women (even biological) are different?

If we can't use woman, can we use mother or will they want that too? Will maternity wards be called something else now?

Just really trying to understand where the madness will end...

If we can't use woman, can we use mother or will they want that too? Will maternity wards be called something else now?

I'm sure they will come after the word "maternity".

They already have in Brighton I believe, isn’t it perinatal services there now?

You can use the word woman when referring to someone who has assaulted a 6 year old boy in Canada and other similar circumstances… just not in relation to the biology, bodily processes or healthcare of human females.

@Novavee my understanding is officially it’s option 1, but it’s birthing people to include trans men and non binary people. However some people feel it’s also a little of option 2. I’ve only been aware of this in the last few months, and it’s completely confusing.

If anyone is looking for an alternative to the Postive Birth Company pack. Millie Hill and Sophie Fletcher have created a digital pack to support women giving birth in a pandemic. It has hypnobirthing audio.

They have made it available on a pay what you can afford basis with all proceeds going to charity.

I listened to Sophie Fletchers hypnobirthing tracks when I was in labour and I do think it was fab.

Available here:

courses.positivebirthmovement.org/pandemic-pack

following

Thanks for the replies and for the clarification @Blackandwhitehorse. I forgot about non-binary, which is a concept I struggle with and had to go and google the genderqueer definitions a bit more. One article I read mentioned one form of discrimination non-binary people suffer is erasure, when others don't acknowledge their experience and existence. It doesn't make sense to me that in order not to erase a minority that does not conform to a socially constructed gender idiology, the solution is to erase all biological women.

After reading @DaisiesandButtercups post, I came across a document from Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals called "Perinatal Care for Trans and Non-binary people".

The entire document focuses on being inclusive and using gender neutral expressions when caring for trans and non-binary patients and adding their preferred language, not simply erasing the word woman like many companies seem to be doing, nor using the gender neutral language for all.

It recomends changes such as postnatal ward bathroom signs saying "Birthing women and people only" instead of "women only" or using always "women and birthing people" in a sentence when speaking to trans/non-binary people instead of generalising and using the word "women".

But surely, in the context of maternity care, regardless of how you identify, the approach needs to be to place that person at the centre of the experience. So saying that birth is not a woman-centred experienced in an attempt to be inclusive and PC, simply has the effect of allienating 99.3% of their client base, who are looking for their services precisely because they want their birthing experience to be woman-centred/patient-led, no?

I thought we were working towards a less stereotypical society, where traditional gender roles were dismantled; a society that listened to women and they experiences, which are based on their biological sex.

I guess I was wrong...

I shall be looking at alternative hypnobirthing options then...

Thanks for the heads-up @Siablue and @PumpkinWitch that’s great.

Milli Hill’s pregnancy/childbirth books are also 99p on Amazon throughout July for the kindle versions-

The Positive Birth Book

Give Birth Like A Feminist