“Brave”

[Thewinterofdiscontent]

We have a transgender pupil at our all boys school. They are wearing a skirt. Everyone us calling them brave for coming out.
I think it’s misogynistic to say being a feminine man is brave. Wearing “womans ” clothes should be no different to woman wearing men’s clothes( not often described as brave).

Also they have now adopted weird affections such as being “tired” after very little exertion and doing an odd coughing with two fingers covering the mouth. Nor really how anyone make or female behaves in real life.

If they were female we’d be telling them to buck up and be more male.

The whole thing is annoying, clearly something other than biology.

If the student appears tired after exertion , even if it turns out to be mere affectation I would be informing the parents of this so they can take the child to the doctor's, especially if they have a persistent cough.
As to the student's bravery, well I suppose wearing a skirt in an all boy's school can't be easy but it is nice to think that the boys in this school are open to accept non gender conforming male pupils.
I don't really understand why you would say "If they were female we’d be telling them to buck up and be more male." If they are being told this by other students then those students should be reprimanded, if it is by teachers then that is appalling.

Why would a boy who wants to be a girl be happy to continue in an all boy school?
The tiredness & cough should be reported for clinical advice.

I do think a boy doing GNC things is brave and a man as well.

Loads of men and boys are highly invested in perpetuating a very fixed view of what a man is. And can and are awful to non conforming males. Homophobic violence etc.

The other behaviour is bizarre and needs looking into.

Oh and the best way to reduce discrimination is to see the thing as normal not as something special etc. Also it might make other boys who want to wear a skirt less likely as they worry they're not brave enough.

A child with possible dysphoria (or whatever is going on for them to make them feel this is the way they need to go) visibly responding to that in a way which makes them happier but is going to make them stand out a LOT amongst their peers is quite brave, is it not? Even if you don't agree that what they're doing is 'genuine' or you think it's 'annoying'.

Someone needs to call their parents and explain your concern over their recent fatigue and persistent cough. Doesn't matter of it's fake.

Why would you tell a female to act more male? If that's the attitude in your school - that the best people are ones that act like men - then no wonder people consider this child brave for going against that

Always think it seems braver somehow to be openly a boy or man and be non-conforming. No cheerleaders or special assemblies for them.

I think it’s misogynistic to say being a feminine man is brave. Wearing “womans ” clothes should be no different to woman wearing men’s clothes( not often described as brave).

No - what they are being brave for is standing out from the crowd as different, and how they feel they are. That is what takes courage. It's nawt to do with misogyny.

The whole thing is annoying, clearly something other than biology.

Ok, so clearly you find someone being different to norms, and living their truth as being annoying to you. That is a sad view. We should celebrate difference, not punish it. Thus goes back to the comment on being brave - precisely for the behaviour demonstrated in this comment.

Good on the child for living their truth and having the courage to do so. Courage calls to courage everywhere. Let's not forget that in our rush to crush someone who is different.

Whilst wearing a skirt isn't in itself an act of bravery, I think it is brave of them to challenge gender stereotypes in an all boys environment. I fully support these scenarios. They should be encouraged to embrace whatever fashion they see fit (within the school uniform policy), whilst remaining in a boys school. It sends a great message that you can be GNC, but remain in the correct sex based environment. It's fantastic that the other boys are accepting of their classmates expression of their personality. It's great that they are (so far) staying in the all boys school and not demanding a space at an all girls school.

Agree with PP that the parents should be made aware of the fatigue and cough though.

I don’t know how you have associated the cough or being tired as being feminine thing, if anything it’s covid assumption diagnosis.

Using 2 fingers when cough weird again as some cough into there elbow crease, use one or both hands so don’t know how you came up with associating this as being feminine.

As for skirt wearing, I would applaud that if school uniform rules are sexist and enforced trousers same as when girls have done same.

If my DS wanted to wear skirt I’d kind of think they brave as in having to face all shit they would get for being 1st to break down sexists stereotype but I’d be pissed if only reason wanted to was just seek attention

More definitely has to be done to promote 'boys' who remain 'boys' and challenge gender stereotypes and 'girls' who remain 'girls' who do the same.

If he's really tired after small amounts if exertion he should see a dr especially if he's coughing maybe he's asthmatic.

Under another circumstances a child would be told to stop mucking about and do as they were told at school. This whole thing adds a layer of invisibility to poor behaviour.

Skirts for the boys should be on the uniform.list I guess.

But the extra attention needs to be nipped in the bud. He's at school he's there to learn and the class clown is usually told off not indulged.

Has no-one told this child that girls wear trousers?

By all means wear a skirt but it doesn't make you a girl.

I think it is quite brave of them to go against societal norms and great that they have the support of their peers.

I guess it's quite brave for a boy to be wearing a skirt in front of all his boy peers because it gains a lot of attention, but I suppose only in the same way a girl shaving all her hair off to gain attention would be "brave".

I think it's the subtext... There's a mantra underlining trans ideology where anyone "coming out" is automatically "stunning and brave" and this mantra basically overlooks the fact that this boy might not even have gender dysphoria or be "trans" in the original sense. He might just fancy wearing a skirt and that should be fine, nothing particularly incredible about that. Jean Paul Gautier was at it for years.

(He also could be doing it to get to go in the girls area when he's swimming at the weekend or whatever.)

I though my weren’t doing ‘faux naivety’ on Mumsnet anymore? This thread is weird. Just everyone say what you mean!

I think it is quite brave of them to go against societal norms and great that they have the support of their peers

I always think we should actually be a bit wary here. Teach kids that actually their followers /supporters aren't necessarily actually their friends.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy awareness that there are people who will egg others off a cliff. Be your best friend until they have you right where they want you and then when you take that final leap banking on their support, well your the one.left holding the magazine that they talked you into nicking and they ate long gone by the time the security guard taps you on the shoulder..kinda thing.

Not saying that's what these kids are doing but not everyone who appears supportive has pure motives. We shouldn't let the cause cloud our judgment on what we know others can be like.

I am inclined to agree with the Guidance from Transgender Trend:

'Publicly 'celebrating' a transgender child as 'brave and courageous' can have unintended consequences. Schools should maintain a neutral stance of 'kind acceptance'. Children, and on occasions their parents, may be looking for approval and validation. It is not the role of the school to either publicly validate the child or to be disapproving and unkind. Schools should foster a tolerant and caring approach and ensure that there is no bullying or hostility towards the child.'

Page 9: www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Transgender-Trend-Resource-Pack-for-Schools3.pdf

If they were female we’d be telling them to buck up and be more male.

WTF?

I guess the OP means that people used to be told to 'man up' if being pathetic, which is very outdated. These days if someone is drippy without reason they are encouraged to become more resilient.

Without more information, is there any reason to suppose it’s bravery rather than attention-seeking? Either way, I hope he can talk to somebody sensible about his motivation.

IToldYouIWasCummins

Welcome to Mumsnet

I though my weren’t doing ‘faux naivety’ on Mumsnet anymore? This thread is weird. Just everyone say what you mean

Sorry is there something unclear about the opinions being expressed? What would you like us to say?

@334bu

IToldYouIWasCummins

Welcome to Mumsnet

I though my weren’t doing ‘faux naivety’ on Mumsnet anymore? This thread is weird. Just everyone say what you mean

Sorry is there something unclear about the opinions being expressed? What would you like us to say?

My goodness you have already advanced search my name? Paranoid much 🙄

Sounds more attention-seeking than brave to me shrugs

My goodness you have already advanced search my name? Paranoid much 🙄

😂 Nice swerve. However, what would you like us to say, as obviously we are not saying the right thing?

I have said what I think.

???