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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender identity as a protected belief - Observer article

52 replies

InvisibleDragon · 27/06/2021 08:54

Reading this great editorial in the Observer about gender identity and gender critical feminism as protected beliefs:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/the-observer-view-on-the-right-to-free-expression?

“Gender-critical” beliefs refer to the view that someone’s sex – whether they are male or female – is biological and immutable and cannot be conflated with someone’s gender identity, whether they identify as a man or a woman. The belief that the patriarchal oppression of women is grounded partly in their biological sex, not just the social expression of gender, and that women therefore have the right to certain single-sex spaces and to organise on the basis of biological sex if they so wish, represents a long-standing strand of feminist thinking. Other feminists disagree, believing that gender identity supersedes biological sex altogether.

Both are legitimate perspectives that deserve to be heard in a democratic society. Both can be expressed without resulting in the abuse, harassment and discrimination of trans people or women. Being able to talk about these alternative perspectives goes to the heart of resolving important questions about how we structure society. They include: whether it is right that the law permits the provision of single-sex spaces and services; whether official government data, such as the census, should record a person’s biological sex as well as gender identity; whether women have the right to request that intimate medical examinations or searches are undertaken by someone who is female; what are the appropriate safeguards in the medical treatment of children with gender dysphoria; and whether it is legitimate to exclude those who have been through male puberty from competing in women’s sport.

I'd like to start a conversation on what it means in practice for gender identity and gender critical beliefs to be protected beliefs. We live in a religiously pluralistic society that largely manages to accommodate multiple different religious beliefs and lack of belief.

Can we use that as a model for accommodating a belief in gender identity along with gender atheism?

For example, in general you can't discriminate based on religious belief when hiring someone. If I want to hire a software engineer, I can't generally specify that I want an atheist one. But if I'm hiring an Imam, I can reject applicants who are not Muslim - as described in the Equalities act. Similarly, if someone needs a specific religious service - like receiving the last rites from the hospital chaplain, they can expect their religious belief to be accommodated - and for a Catholic priest to show up, rather than a humanist celebrant or an imam!

Surely it should be the same for gender critical and gender identity beliefs? So for some people gender identity may supercede biological sex and it is fine if a trans woman performs an intimate medical exam. Whilst for others, biological sex is more important than gender identity and they should be able to request without censure that a biological woman does this.

Also, as an atheist I don't believe in a God or higher power. I am aware that other people do - and I respect this. But not sharing their deeply held belief doesn't mean that I deny their existence. Nor do I typically have to perform religious rituals to be accepted as a member of polite society.

OP posts:
LibertyMole · 27/06/2021 13:42

I like the term sex critical too.

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2021 13:48

AFAIK, beliefs were protected by equality law because they can't be backed up with generally accepted, provable facts. So its very strange to see 'belief in facts and the law' needing to be protected in the same way.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/06/2021 14:10

PPs who consider sex critical to be appropriate - can you elaborate a little on why, if it's not burdensome or intrusive?

nauticant · 27/06/2021 15:07

Twitter is pretty angry at the idea of women having freedom of speech:

twitter.com/search?q=(observer%20OR%20guardian)%20trans&src=typed_query&f=live

Usually a sign that things are heading in the right direction.

Doyoumind · 27/06/2021 15:28

@nauticant

Twitter is pretty angry at the idea of women having freedom of speech:

twitter.com/search?q=(observer%20OR%20guardian)%20trans&src=typed_query&f=live

Usually a sign that things are heading in the right direction.

TRA twitter is furious with The Observer, but even with The Guardian I almost never see them congratulating the paper for supporting trans rights. The general consensus on here seems to be that The Guardian is very anti GC, which I agree with, but the TRAs also claim it's transphobic, so they appear to be pleasing no one.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/06/2021 15:33

The exchange with the always reliable lecanardnoir is a joy (the full thread needs to be read up and down as there's no decent way to archive this so it reads as a full thread):

twitter.com/Bjerkeley/status/1409059532379131908

is part of the Andress thread:

twitter.com/ProfDaveAndress/status/1409042934952046593

archive part 1: archive.is/yz6yU

screenshot part 2:

Gender identity as a protected belief - Observer article
Thelnebriati · 27/06/2021 15:51

The easiest way to archive a Twitter thread is to follow one of the unroll accounts such as @threadreaderapp, tweet ''@threadreaderapp, unroll please'' and then archive the unrolled page.

twitter.com/threadreaderapp

AnyOldPrion · 27/06/2021 17:22

I think what I like about the parallel between gender identity belief and religion is that, as an atheist, this is also how I feel about religious belief.

The difference for me is that atheism is based on a lack of evidence. You can’t prove there is no God, they can’t prove there is. I realise one argument is more compelling than the other, but the comparison doesn’t really hold up.

Sex is obervable, widely studied and well established. The equivalent would be belief in creationism vs belief in evolution. One is based on science, the other is argued using clever sounding pseudoscience that doesn’t hold up under robust scientific scrutiny.

I can treat people reasonably who choose ascientific ideas over science and (let’s be frank) common sense. But I don’t have to respect their beliefs and consider their faith to be in any way equivalent to my understanding of facts.

Welloff · 27/06/2021 18:09

“PPs who consider sex critical to be appropriate - can you elaborate a little on why, if it's not burdensome or intrusive?“

Hi I like it because it gets to the nub of the belief that biological sex isn’t as important as was once believed/is more of a spectrum than was believed/that it’s “hearts not parts” so genitalia should be irrelevant.

It’s like that venn diagram people put on the board sometimes.

Welloff · 27/06/2021 18:12

Here

Gender identity as a protected belief - Observer article
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/06/2021 19:30

the nub of the belief that biological sex isn’t as important as was once believed/is more of a spectrum than was believed/that it’s “hearts not parts” so genitalia should be irrelevant.

That's a helpful insight into your perspective.

JellySlice · 27/06/2021 19:48

Genderism is all about belief, a neo-religion, and should be treated as such.

But how can believing that you are the opposite sex, and that others should collude in this, be a 'belief worthy of respect in a democratic society'? A Christian's faith is not dependent upon Muslims and atheists serving him Mass.

InvisibleDragon · 27/06/2021 20:26

JellySlice

But how can believing that you are the opposite sex, and that others should collude in this, be a 'belief worthy of respect in a democratic society'?

For me, this is why equating gender identity with a religious belief works so well. We would find it oppressive and authoritarian if a specific religious group started insisting that we all participate in their religious rituals or face censure. And governments can regulate religious expression that they deem to be harmful (e.g. FGM and exorcisms are child abuse).

So when I say that gender identity is a belief, that doesn't mean that we should all accept having gender identity imposed on us in all places. Making the comparison with religion makes the current overreach clearer. Identity yourself as having whatever gender identity you desire, divide your private spaces according to gender identity if that works for you, ask for some gender-identity-based spaces if you desire. But as soon as your requests start imposing on the rights of others or causing them harm, you are overstepping what is appropriate and can expect legal pushback.

OP posts:
WotgunShedding · 27/06/2021 20:37

He could do with reading hadley’s article on the wrong side of history malarkey

Gender identity as a protected belief - Observer article
Welloff · 27/06/2021 21:10

“That's a helpful insight into your perspective.”

sarcasm or straight?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 27/06/2021 21:19

@Welloff

“That's a helpful insight into your perspective.”

sarcasm or straight?

It was a sincere acknowledgement that you took the time and effort to respond to my enquiry.
Welloff · 27/06/2021 21:28

Ok thank you but I think your generosity is misplaced as I am firmly on the same side of the debate as the majority here. I just liked the term as it captured some of the things said by those who disagree with Hadley but with whom we still wish to be on nodding terms.

It also exposes the nature of the proposition to those outside the debate. “Libfem” does not!

Welloff · 27/06/2021 21:29

.....mixed up my threads - thought it was Hadley who said it. Oops.

JellySlice · 27/06/2021 22:18

I entirely agree with you, InvisibleDragon. I didn't express myself clearly: it's more the fact that a fundamental aspect of this neo-religion appears to be that it requires non-believers to affirm it, that makes me question whether it can be acceptable to society.

Welloff · 27/06/2021 22:51

.....Christianity definitely requires non-believers to believe it (or burn in hell) so I think the “sex-critical” lot qualify under equality act by some margin!

stumbledin · 28/06/2021 00:11

I think the problem with this (arising from the court ruling) is the idea that women being the biological sex female is a "belief".

It isn't a belief, it is a statement.

We need to be careful not to go down this slippery slope putting biological fact having no more substance that a concept.

And most papers are now using the ruling to talk about freedom of speech, as it gives them the get out of not having to address the fundamental difference between an identity or social construct, and an actual reality.

MoonlightApple · 28/06/2021 10:36

I agree. It’s great (if slightly patronising) that we are now ‘allowed’ to hold gender critical beliefs but I shudder that people think it is actually only a belief and not a fact.

However I accept that other people hold beliefs that they also consider to be facts so maybe that’s where it’s all coming from.

Good article from the Observer though. I’m glad they at least have some sense of decency.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 28/06/2021 13:32

Extensive essay on why gender is not a spectrum but more generally useful as an exploration of the spectrum analogy:

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

LibertyMole · 28/06/2021 13:44

“PPs who consider sex critical to be appropriate - can you elaborate a little on why, if it's not burdensome or intrusive?“

Because it makes it possible for people who are unfamiliar with all of this to quickly understand what the position is - that there are people who don’t believe biological sex as ordinarily understood is real.

It gets straight to the point of how ludicrous it is rather than allowing them to hide it behind all this be kind business.

MoonlightApple · 28/06/2021 14:01

@embarassingadmissions - that’s a cracking article, thanks for sharing!

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