Irish Times article on treatment for children

[WeeSisters]

Excellent Irish Times article on treatment for children with gender dysphoria. Very studiously neutral but does express reservations about social contagion and irreversibility, though ends with a teenager asking for quicker treatment.

Excellent as a first step to start discussing the issues and not just repeating TWAW

Gender distress treatment in young people: a highly charged debate
via The Irish Times
www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/gender-distress-treatment-in-young-people-a-highly-charged-debate-1.4602455

Thank you for posting this.

Thanks for linking to this. Quite a comprehensive piece. Will be interesting to see comments/letters to the editor, on foot of it.

I was going to post it too. I tried to comment - none allowed. My comment on yesterday’s article on LH and the olympics was not posted either. Seems only one view is allowed.

Very interesting that they have been reassured that there is legal cover in place via the Irish government (ie taxpayer) to cover all potential liabilities even in light of the UK ruling. Also note how they underline that the UK ruling does not apply here.

Interesting that the Irish psychologist is still using the terminology "born in the wrong body" when Mermaids and a load of the other UK TRA's said that that was incorrect last year.

I have to say I was dubious going into it but its a really thorough article. Although I wished they had pushed back more against the idea that the UK court ruling doesn't apply here. Thats technically true but its much more complex in reality, its incredibly rare (I honestly can't think of any examples) that the Irish courts take a wholly different view on something, its so well accepted that the English courts have an influence on Irish law that especially where there hasn't been Irish litigation on a subject or much litigation that English court decisions will be cited without needing to qualify their relevance. It could be so much money if even a few of the teenagers have regrets and decide to sue especially since they've continued despite the UK and Sweden taking pause.

Its a pity they didn't get Donal O'Shea's direct comments, he seems quite sensible on this and willing to push back against the ideology. You would kind of worry what would happen if he left the service before the new pathway was set up.

The young trans man they interviewed seemed very fragile, if you're constantly depending on others for validation you'll never be happy. Its a pity that because of affirmation model that it doesn't appear that anything other than being transgender was investigated especially when these issues directly coincide with puberty and from what we were told in the article don't seem to have been present before.

Oh yes I forgot to mention the ‘born in the wrong body’ nonsense 🙄🙄🙄🙄. As usual it seems we are about 20 years behind rationale societies.

I thought it was very carefully written. The author set out the gender critical viewpoint and all the drawbacks very well, but had to end on a TRA note to be published. It’s hard to see how you could read it and not start to ask questions.

I haven't read the full piece yet (want to buy a paper copy, too long for phone reading) but thought it started well. I noted they had comments from Dr Moran rather than O'Shea which is a pity. I liked yesterday's piece on LH, it seems like a neutral salvo and the comments I read were heartening. Is the IT slowly changing position? I think Fintan O'Toole and Roisin Ingle are sceptical on the issue which certainly helps.

@miri1985 the UK rulings will apply in many cases. Firstly because Irish case law tends to follow British law as our system is based on theirs, which doesn't apply for any other jurisdiction. Secondly Irish courts often quote British law. Thirdly Irish courts only quote English language jurisdictions. And most importantly, the UK judgement relied on EU law - which applies to Ireland in the May Forestator case.

2 full pages in the newspaper! I thought it was excellent!

That is a really interesting read. 🌞🌞🌞🌞🌞

I thought it was ok until I got to "“All mammals start off being female [when developing in the womb], and it is the testosterone that the [male] foetus is exposed to, in the uterus, that leads it to showing a male phenotype [a person’s observable traits],” Evans told The Irish Times."

This is used as a justification for men wanting to become women . That and the support for TENI (whose safeguarding is non-existent) made me at the entire article.

Wow! I’d say IT legal went through that with the toothless of fine tooth combs. A lot of research went into that.

I’d challenge Paul Moran on his remark that distress like that experience by Keira Bell is unusual. How would they know if the Tavistock weren’t following up these patients on a long term basis post transition?

Not toothless, toothiest. Autocorrect etc

@CliffsofMohair

Wow! I’d say IT legal went through that with the toothless of fine tooth combs. A lot of research went into that.

I’d challenge Paul Moran on his remark that distress like that experience by Keira Bell is unusual. How would they know if the Tavistock weren’t following up these patients on a long term basis post transition?

Yes , there were 8500 people on r/detrans before Reddit zapped it. That's a lot of Keira Bells.

[quote Cailin66]@miri1985 the UK rulings will apply in many cases. Firstly because Irish case law tends to follow British law as our system is based on theirs, which doesn't apply for any other jurisdiction. Secondly Irish courts often quote British law. Thirdly Irish courts only quote English language jurisdictions. And most importantly, the UK judgement relied on EU law - which applies to Ireland in the May Forestator case.[/quote]
True. And Irish - even Australian - precedents can be used in English and Welsh courts iirc. So the claim that the Bell ruling does not apply here is a bit disingenuous.